Need help understanding a best/worst cigar mindset

[RijkdeGooier]

I'm not sure what you mean by sorters - finished cigars are sorted by color, but tobacco leaves are processed in bulk together. And surely, the leaves are individual, unlike grapes processed for wine, but I guess the goal is still uniform processing.

Regardless, unless we've all been shined on, there are "recipes" for blending particular cigars - whether blended as we percieve blends to be or not (I'm not sure a cigar is blended for chocolate / caramel / etc).

Inconsistency is a sad reality of the Cuban cigar industry, but I'm personally less willing to give a pass based on the "natural product" aspect. While flavor could vary, overall quality should not, and it should not be accepted.

But that's all another topic for another time.

For what it's worth, i've come to feel that Cuban cigars have more in common than they have polarizing differences.

On Trevor's site there is a good overview of the entire process:

http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/info-production.aspx

I found this pictorial as well to illustrate Trevor's information:

http://gretchenimages.com/?p=4855

The sorting and bundling is done at the local provincial sorting houses.

In the end, it might be a good idea to sit down with a couple of friends (5 or more) break open a box and start smoking the cigars, taking notes on appearance, construction and taste. Make sure you compare notes as you go along and try the cigars of your friends too.

You will notice my point immediately in most boxes.

[mk05]

Taste is subjective. Master sommeliers can taste more - or rather precisely - than you. Some people can even taste/experience in colors.

The quest is to acquire great taste, not to acquire good cigars.

[TonyAccardo]

Are you saying that there's no Partagas, Montecristo, Hoyo or Punch profile? Why would you have different marcas in your stash then?

That is exactly what he's saying and I agree 1000%! My feeling on it is, people who DO think that there are such particular profiles attributed to certain "bands" either have a damaged olfactory nerve or let brands and bands influence their senses more than they'd like to admit. I can buy 10 boxes of Monte #2's and get the same differences in flavor profile in each of those 10 boxes than if I were to buy 10 boxes, each one being a different pyramides (La Punta, Upmann #2, Diplo#2, CPE).

The reason I think people buy different "brands" is for the same reason I do,....because it makes me feel like I'm getting more variety. But again, the truth of the matter, for me, is that I get the same variety if I were to only stick with one "brand", and I do put "brands" in quotes for a reason. They're not really seperate brands at all. They are all one brand with a variety of bands. There is no privatization between the brands as there was before 1959, although there are private farms, that is not so amongst the factories and we know this.

I'm also appreciative of cigar box art too and I just find it aesthetically pleasing having a variety of different cigar boxes in my cabinets, and in the back of my mind, I feel I'm going to get a completely different experience out of this box of Punch DC's than my box of Hoyo DC's. Sometimes that doesn't happen though and alot of boxes have way more similarities amongst them/between them than differences.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. Why would I? I honestly could care less about you or your cigars, whether you enjoy them or not, or what you think of them. But when people come out and say that there are specific "profiles" like a Punch profile, Partagas profile specific to a certain vitola and "brand", I'm going to call it crazy and just another way of trying to be an elitest. Period!

[Smallclub]

That is exactly what he's saying and I agree 1000%! My feeling on it is, people who DO think that there are such particular profiles attributed to certain "bands" either have a damaged olfactory nerve !

To my knowledge and experience people who say so are olfactory blind and refuse to admit it, or are incapable/unwilling to concentrate on the smoking experience.

Explain me why I can name a Montecristo, a Hoyo, a Partagas, a Upmann as soon as the cigar has reached its "cruising" temperature?

I can make a confusion between young Hoyo and Upmann, young Punch/ SLR/ RA, but if you can't tell a Monte 4 or 5, a Partagas Short or D4 compared to cigars of the same size, after X years of smoking, well, I wonder what you expect from a forum dedicated to habanos…

Rob (our host) has initiated a number of threads and polls about flavor profiles, difference between marcas, etc.

According to you he's crazy and an elitist?

[TonyAccardo]

To my knowledge and experience people who say so are olfactory blind and refuse to admit it, or are incapable/unwilling to concentrate on the smoking experience.

Explain me why I can name a Montecristo, a Hoyo, a Partagas, a Upmann as soon as the cigar has reached its "cruising" temperature?

I can make a confusion between young Hoyo and Upmann, young Punch/ SLR/ RA, but if you can't tell a Monte 4 or 5, a Partagas Short or D4 compared to cigars of the same size, after X years of smoking, well, I wonder what you expect from a forum dedicated to habanos

Rob (our host) has initiated a number of threads and polls about flavor profiles, difference between marcas, etc.

According to you he's crazy and an elitist?

You know, you're right, and I apologize for not making that distinction. Yes, as cigars age, to me it seems they pull away from each other and separation of similarities becomes evident. The differences in their blends becomes apparent, the thirds become more distinguished. But alot or maybe even most people smoke their cigars under 5 years of age. This is why so many, including me, see more similarities than differences between the brands.

But even with that being said, I still think that the "brands" is more of a marketing ploy than an intentional seperating of blend characteristics by the ones responsible for the manufacture of the cigars. After all, it is all one "company", the Cuban State-owned government, and not private individual owned companies as it was in the past, with owners and employees who each have their seperate sets of skills, beliefs, and intentions. But the aging fact is probably another good explanation as to why cigar smokers thought cuban cigars tasted much more individualistic back in the 90's and prior. The simple fact is that tobacconists and even the Cuban government didn't release cigars until they had properly matured and if you read other, older guys experiences from back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, they don't recall having to age their boxes and remember each brand having much more distinctive flavors than cigars throughout the late 90's and up till recent times. Now it seems as if there are more boxes of cigars coming available that are taking on these characteristics from the past, albeit different strains of tobacco used but with still the same result,......a cigar that has inherent qualities and characteristics found only amongst those cigars of that brand/vitola. And I can only surmise that this is because the stocks of properly fermented and aged tobacco that is being used today.

So thank you Smallclub for opening my eyes up to that fact as it is absolutely true and you are absolutely right about it.

[PigFish]

My additional thoughts on the matter!

First, this is not my thread nor is it about me. I wish to participate in it, not overwhelm it with my minority opinion. My opinion is all over this site in hundreds of threads and thousands of posts.

The answer is in several parts; the first of which is anecdotal. I cannot taste brand profiles! Two; there are very few who can, based on actual evidence produced every time a blind tasting is done. My analysis is therefore complete. The burden of proof based on numerous blind tastings is ether that cigar smokers have no clue as to what they are smoking or there are no brand profiles. The result therefore leaves those who wish to prove brand profiling on their shoulders. One therefore can believe, know, or pretend to know to his/hers hearts content but it is up to them to prove it, not for me to disprove it. When he/she can walk from cigar store to cigar store and substantially beat the law of averages by properly identifying a M2, P2, H2 and D2 with blind tests, and he can do it with a high degree of certainty, I will change my opinion and believe that I have the tastes of an alpaca!

All cigars are individuals, however I do believe that there are differences. I am not going to go overboard on my philosophy here. I have posted it hundreds of times. I am after the best smoking experience and I do believe that the factory ‘attempts’ at profiling. I believe that they are unsuccessful, but that does not read, nor should it be understood, as there are no differences in cigars.

The fact remains that there are no ‘Cuban brands.’ There are no specific dedicated vegas that deliver specific dedicated tobacco, to specific dedicated factories and rollers as there would be if the control of specific cigars, the tobacco and the lands that they were farmed on were in the hands of a privately owned company with that as their mission. Brands therefore in the nationalist cigar company known as Tabacuba are simply placards on box tops. Furthermore, I feel that the company named Tabacuba has very little interest in putting the best cigar that they can make on the market. They have simultaneously cancelled the best cigars that they have made and proved to many seasoned smokers that little interest in smokers’ tastes and a primary interest in selling hype and shiny boxes… MHO!

This does not mean that I ‘believe’ that there is no difference in cigars! It simply means that (I believe) the correlation of brand to a specific taste is a myth, but the brand to a superior smoking experience ‘may’ be a reality. I am not going to spin this further. It is my belief. I cannot prove it, and bringing other folks in by name to make a point is childish!

Furthermore, I have been preaching my waning interest in a broad selection of different cigars for a long time now. Frankly, if certain lessor brands were still made, I could smoke the 1, 3, 4 and 5 of those brands and be perfectly happy for the rest of my life. For example, I like beef! I like rib-eye cut steaks and roasts and tri-tip. I have little need to buy filets, or NY strips to mix it up. I buy tri-tip or rib-eyes only when I BBQ my beef. I am settled. I don’t search for the new and different. I search for the best cut of what I have deemed the best beef…

Lastly… discussing what others can and cannot do, what they allegedly taste and cannot taste is a pitiful argument tactic. While the field of cigars is narrowing so getting selections is getting harder, I challenge anyone to prove cigar brand profiles exist.

The challenge is as follows. Rob will select 10 cigars all piramides. We will pay a flat rate for them which Rob will use to cover his costs. There will be no means to back calculate the cigars from his website. We will all agree on the costs. Rob will select the cigar so that no trace of branding can be seen on the cigar. No band imprints, etc. They will consist of at least 3 brands from two separate boxes with different codes. He can choose as many different brands or boxes as he wishes, as log as there are at least 3 and at least 3 of each for 3 brands. You will not be told which brands are selected. You will smoke 10 cigars in 12 days and post your guess in public. Rob will number the cigars 1 to 10 and send them to you. He will send me the coding on the cigars. He will verify the results with me. You will pay for the cigars and I too will give Rob a CC to charge. You will properly identify 90% of the cigars, that is 9 of the 10 to win. If you win, I will buy the cigars. Furthermore, I will take my hat off for you in your presence and call you Sir! If you can guess 9 or 10 of 10 I will have been proven wrong about taste profiles...!

You either believe in your tastes and theories or you don't. The burden of proof is on you. If you are right I will even pay for the lesson, the lesson will be taught to me and therefore I should pay.

IF YOU LOSE, I WILL GET 10 PIRAMIDES SENT TO ME BY ROB, PAID FOR BY YOU. You will therefore have bought your own cigars to smoke and agree to buy 10 more for me! I will take the 10 piramides or the cash equivalent in better cigars! If you lose you will pay for the lesson as it will be you learning something about yourself and Cuban cigars!

I WILL TAKE 1 CHALLENGER AT A TIME. I WON’T PAY AUSTRALIAN PRICES; IF I LOST IT WOULD BREAK ME…! –LOL DON’T ALL SPEAK UP AT ONCE PLEASE!!! IF MORE THAN ONE PERSON DOES RISE TO THE OCCASION I WILL PICK THE CHALLENGER. As of today I will limit it to 3 challengers!

If Rob does not wish to play, or needs a fee to cover his costs we will discuss it. I cannot obligate him to play along!

Cheers! –the Pig

[mash]

My additional thoughts on the matter!

First, this is not my thread nor is it about me. I wish to participate in it, not overwhelm it with my minority opinion. My opinion is all over this site in hundreds of threads and thousands of posts.

The answer is in several parts; the first of which is anecdotal. I cannot taste brand profiles! Two; there are very few who can, based on actual evidence produced every time a blind tasting is done. My analysis is therefore complete. The burden of proof based on numerous blind tastings is ether that cigar smokers have no clue as to what they are smoking or there are no brand profiles. The result therefore leaves those who wish to prove brand profiling on their shoulders. One therefore can believe, know, or pretend to know to his/hers hearts content but it is up to them to prove it, not for me to disprove it. When he/she can walk from cigar store to cigar store and substantially beat the law of averages by properly identifying a M2, P2, H2 and D2 with blind tests, and he can do it with a high degree of certainty, I will change my opinion and believe that I have the tastes of an alpaca!

All cigars are individuals, however I do believe that there are differences. I am not going to go overboard on my philosophy here. I have posted it hundreds of times. I am after the best smoking experience and I do believe that the factory ‘attempts’ at profiling. I believe that they are unsuccessful, but that does not read, nor should it be understood, as there are no differences in cigars.

The fact remains that there are no ‘Cuban brands.’ There are no specific dedicated vegas that deliver specific dedicated tobacco, to specific dedicated factories and rollers as there would be if the control of specific cigars, the tobacco and the lands that they were farmed on were in the hands of a privately owned company with that as their mission. Brands therefore in the nationalist cigar company known as Tabacuba are simply placards on box tops. Furthermore, I feel that the company named Tabacuba has very little interest in putting the best cigar that they can make on the market. They have simultaneously cancelled the best cigars that they have made and proved to many seasoned smokers that little interest in smokers’ tastes and a primary interest in selling hype and shiny boxes… MHO!

This does not mean that I ‘believe’ that there is no difference in cigars! It simply means that (I believe) the correlation of brand to a specific taste is a myth, but the brand to a superior smoking experience ‘may’ be a reality. I am not going to spin this further. It is my belief. I cannot prove it, and bringing other folks in by name to make a point is childish!

Furthermore, I have been preaching my waning interest in a broad selection of different cigars for a long time now. Frankly, if certain lessor brands were still made, I could smoke the 1, 3, 4 and 5 of those brands and be perfectly happy for the rest of my life. For example, I like beef! I like rib-eye cut steaks and roasts and tri-tip. I have little need to buy filets, or NY strips to mix it up. I buy tri-tip or rib-eyes only when I BBQ my beef. I am settled. I don’t search for the new and different. I search for the best cut of what I have deemed the best beef…

Lastly… discussing what others can and cannot do, what they allegedly taste and cannot taste is a pitiful argument tactic. While the field of cigars is narrowing so getting selections is getting harder, I challenge anyone to prove cigar brand profiles exist.

The challenge is as follows. Rob will select 10 cigars all piramides. We will pay a flat rate for them which Rob will use to cover his costs. There will be no means to back calculate the cigars from his website. We will all agree on the costs. Rob will select the cigar so that no trace of branding can be seen on the cigar. No band imprints, etc. They will consist of at least 3 brands from two separate boxes with different codes. He can choose as many different brands or boxes as he wishes, as log as there are at least 3 and at least 3 of each for 3 brands. You will not be told which brands are selected. You will smoke 10 cigars in 12 days and post your guess in public. Rob will number the cigars 1 to 10 and send them to you. He will send me the coding on the cigars. He will verify the results with me. You will pay for the cigars and I too will give Rob a CC to charge. You will properly identify 90% of the cigars, that is 9 of the 10 to win. If you win, I will buy the cigars. Furthermore, I will take my hat off for you in your presence and call you Sir! If you can guess 9 or 10 of 10 I will have been proven wrong about taste profiles...!

You either believe in your tastes and theories or you don't. The burden of proof is on you. If you are right I will even pay for the lesson, the lesson will be taught to me and therefore I should pay.

IF YOU LOSE, I WILL GET 10 PIRAMIDES SENT TO ME BY ROB, PAID FOR BY YOU. You will therefore have bought your own cigars to smoke and agree to buy 10 more for me! I will take the 10 piramides or the cash equivalent in better cigars! If you lose you will pay for the lesson as it will be you learning something about yourself and Cuban cigars!

I WILL TAKE 1 CHALLENGER AT A TIME. I WON’T PAY AUSTRALIAN PRICES; IF I LOST IT WOULD BREAK ME…! –LOL DON’T ALL SPEAK UP AT ONCE PLEASE!!! IF MORE THAN ONE PERSON DOES RISE TO THE OCCASION I WILL PICK THE CHALLENGER. As of today I will limit it to 3 challengers!

If Rob does not wish to play, or needs a fee to cover his costs we will discuss it. I cannot obligate him to play along!

Cheers! –the Pig

Smallclub, Shlomo. You guys are always talking about the specific characteristics of a marca, how something fits or doesn't fit.

How about it?

[Smallclub]

I'm game.

[Colt45]

There are any number of companies who do not actually produce their branded products, or who produce a number of similar products under one umbrella parent company. Automobiles, guitar strings, beer, wine, light bulbs - the list is long.

Does this mean these "brands" do not actually exist, or do they exist regardless of whether I believe or not.....

[PigFish]

...Brand profiles! I stand corrected.

Lets see if Rob is game. -R

[mash]

I'm game.

All right. Respect.

[FLB03TT]

PigFish- you've proposed a wager no sane seasoned cigar smoker "should" rationally accept. Small club, my hats off to you! Requiring a contestant to correctly identify 90% of the cigars with the structure you've proposed is probably next to impossible, Rob included. Get an 80% accuracy rate and you loose are unreasonably long odds for this contest and is overkill. YOUR point would be proven with a 50% success rate. 90% is abusive- MHO.

Consider this approach. Each contestant pays for his cigars and for every one he, or she, misses they must buy you two, not ten if they miss two. That's a two for one deal for you.

PigFish, if you feel as strongly as you seem to on this point these new odds should secure you enough contestants to prove the point, one way or another, with little financial exposure and the possibility of gain on your part. Without a large enough control group your proposal proves nothing. Considering it's Derby Day- Post Time in 5 minutes, I should add that I will have no horse in this race.

[Ubergosupro69]

Who wants to take side wagers

[PigFish]

PigFish- you've proposed a wager no sane seasoned cigar smoker "should" rationally accept. Small club, my hats off to you! Requiring a contestant to correctly identify 90% of the cigars with the structure you've proposed is probably next to impossible, Rob included. Get an 80% accuracy rate and you loose are unreasonably long odds for this contest and is overkill. YOUR point would be proven with a 50% success rate. 90% is abusive- MHO.

Consider this approach. Each contestant pays for his cigars and for every one he, or she, misses they must buy you two, not ten if they miss two. That's a two for one deal for you.

PigFish, if you feel as strongly as you seem to on this point these new odds should secure you enough contestants to prove the point, one way or another, with little financial exposure and the possibility of gain on your part. Without a large enough control group your proposal proves nothing. Considering it's Derby Day- Post Time in 5 minutes, I should add that I will have no horse in this race.

I disagree with you mate. If you have a point to prove you simply step up on stage and prove it... It does not require a challenge. No one challenged me to make humidors and post my results. I do it openly for all to criticize. No one challenged me to research and substantiate my claims... I do it on my own accord!

I also take my hat off to SC, he is confident in his abilities and has the balls to stand up to the comments that he made above. The challenge is in fact overly generous to those that are confident in their abilities and steadfast in their beliefs. No one's arm was twisted here, this is a freedom of choice interaction by two adults.

The point was made that certain people could choose cigars and know positively what they were based on profile. I disbelieve it but I have no right calling anyone a liar and don't, nor won't, not in this case. Perhaps some folks can and this is their opportunity to watch me eat crow! Frankly, I would be very happy to buy the man's cigars if I lose! It will be an honor!

I salute a man who is confident in his abilities and is willing to prove it. That is all I have to say in the matter.

I will go one better than that... How willing are you to back up your position about my financial gain and fairness?

If you will give Rob $25 for a couple of SC cigars, so will I, and If he is willing that makes $75. We need two or three more participants to test his taste and support him in his effort and take them on display. In this way, no 'one' looses, the wager is off. 5 or 6 of us take the risk for the game and the guy with the balls gets to smoke them and prove himself a hero for $25 bucks. I pay to see results and so do a few others. No financial stake is made beyond buying a contributing member a couple of cigars. The wager goes away and we get to participate in an honorable (I hate the spell checker!!!) contest where no one really loses. I become a bettor for the challenger instead of against him. Does that make you feel better mate? Will you back up your feelings on the matter with a few bucks... so long as I don't profit? Is it worth your money to give him better odds?

That is of course of SC agrees to the terms.

Now mate, it is your turn to support your ostensible claims about me wanting to profit and being a cheat and your inference that SC is a dope for taking the bet. I am offering to pay a share for a man with guts with no return. Are you? Or are you talk?

Who is willing to sponsor SC for $25? I make one stipulation, SC pays a share. This is not about free cigars! I started it with SC and we both take stakes. The accuser takes a stake and we get a few others and the game is afoot. All the cigars are smoked within 2 weeks and none are identified until the end of the game. It is a true blind tasting with no reference beyond personal talent and beliefs.

Smallclub are you willing? Any other sponsors or do we go back to the original deal.

Lastly. I don't succumb to mob pressure. I have no heart strings to pull! SAVE IT! If anyone else does not like my proposal, I don't care. SC has earned my respect by just stepping up!!! I am no way embarrassed by my proposal. If you don't like it, go fish! I will not modify it to suit a mob, but I am willing to let a few harp players pay to take part. This is not about being fair, it is about a system of beliefs and folks with the balls to test them and put them on display. If you don't get it, you don't get it...

Don't like the deal, be my second and offer him a better one and back it up with your money and I will back down! I am offering you a chance to do just that. Want to prove your point and be more fair? Put up your own money!

Cheers! -Piggy

[BonVivant]

Cohiba factory is known as El Laguito.

El Laguito is the best factory in Cuba, according to numerous high officials in the business, including El Presidente, on numerous threads - the search still works

Cohiba is a brand of Cuban cigars, according to HSA

Try Cohiba from El Laguito Factory in a good year, like 2013???? just for the hell of it? and see if the brand exists?

Cohiba from any other factory, than El Laguito (Cohiba factory) cannot qualify, for a simple reason, that it is not Cohiba, but rather a cigar rolled at that factory with a Cohiba band?

Start there, and see what happens? Just a suggestion.

[TonyAccardo]

Even though I find this all intriguing and agree with the others that I respect that Smallclub is so adept at being able to pick out and call flavor profiles accurately, I think with the inconsistencies of cuban cigars, it would be a near impossibility to do so. At least not more than a 50% success rate. I think if the man is to have a good chance at performing this Caligiostro-like task with success one would need to pick from boxes of each marca that are at least HQ or better yet PSP quality, as those boxes are going to be as accurate to what the blendmaster intended AND that each one of those boxes have 5 years on them as that should have given the cigars blend sufficient time to marry and "blossom" into what seperates it from the rest of the marcas. Otherwise, if we're talking about cigars that are anything under 18 to 36 months, not to sound like an *******, but I just don't think that anyone could do it with any kind of accurate success rate and if anyone can, they are truly worthy of cigar guru status and I know my level of respect for that person concerning all things cuban cigars will raise dramatically. Not that anyone cares though about what I think and that leads me to this point.

Even if someone is able to accomplish this task with success, it changes nothing about how I enjoy or don't enjoy my cigars. And other than some entertainment value, it really means very little to me. Maybe it will change my way of thinking about and experiencing cigars, but I highly doubt it. It just seems like we sometimes get caught up in this flavor profile pissing match when really what does it even matter.

I agree with Pigfish as far as cuban cigars when they are in their youth, but I have to admit that Smallclub got me to thinking when it comes to the distinction and seperation of flavor profiles specific to marcas after the 5 year mark. That also makes sense and I know alot of guys here, including Pigfish, have nothing but aged cigars in their cabinets that are 5 plus years old.

Either way, if this is done it will be very interesting and maybe even there is a chance that it could have a significant effect on my beliefs and maybe even buying decisions concerning all things cuban cigars.

[leftimatic]

I disagree with you mate. If you have a point to prove you simply step up on stage and prove it... It does not require a challenge. No one challenged me to make humidors and post my results. I do it openly for all to criticize. No one challenged me to research and substantiate my claims... I do it on my own accord!

I also take my hat off to SC, he is confident in his abilities and has the balls to stand up to the comments that he made above. The challenge is in fact overly generous to those that are confident in their abilities and steadfast in their beliefs. No one's arm was twisted here, this is a freedom of choice interaction by two adults.

The point was made that certain people could choose cigars and know positively what they were based on profile. I disbelieve it but I have no right calling anyone a liar and don't, nor won't, not in this case. Perhaps some folks can and this is their opportunity to watch me eat crow! Frankly, I would be very happy to buy the man's cigars if I lose! It will be an honor!

I salute a man who is confident in his abilities and is willing to prove it. That is all I have to say in the matter.

I will go one better than that... How willing are you to back up your position about my financial gain and fairness?

If you will give Rob $25 for a couple of SC cigars, so will I, and If he is willing that makes $75. We need two or three more participants to test his taste and support him in his effort and take them on display. In this way, no 'one' looses, the wager is off. 5 or 6 of us take the risk for the game and the guy with the balls gets to smoke them and prove himself a hero for $25 bucks. I pay to see results and so do a few others. No financial stake is made beyond buying a contributing member a couple of cigars. The wager goes away and we get to participate in an horrible contest where no one really loses. I become a bettor for the challenger instead of against him. Does that make you feel better mate. Will you back up your feelings on the matter with a few bucks... so long as I don't profit? Is it worth your money to give him better odds?

That is of course of SC agrees to the terms.

Now mate, it is your turn to support your ostensible claims about me wanting to profit and being a cheat and your inference that SC is a dope for taking the bet. I am offering to pay a share for a man with guts with no return. Are you? Or are you talk?

Who is willing to sponsor SC for $25? I make one stipulation, SC pays a share. This is not about free cigars! I started it with SC and we both take stakes. The accuser takes a stake and we get a few others and the game is afoot. All the cigars are smoked within 2 weeks and none are identified until the end of the game. It is a true blind tasting with no reference beyond personal talent and beliefs.

Smallclub are you willing? Any other sponsors or do we go back to the original deal.

Lastly. I don't succumb to mob pressure. I have no heart strings to pull! SAVE IT! If anyone else does not like my proposal, I don't care. SC has earned my respect by just stepping up!!! I am no way embarrassed by my proposal. If you don't like it, go fish! I will not modify it to suit a mob, but I am willing to let a few harp players pay to take part. This is not about being fair, it is about a system of beliefs and folks with the balls to test them and put them on display. If you don't get it, you don't get it...

Don't like the deal, be my second and offer him a better one and back it up with your money and I will back down! I am offering you a chance to do just that. Want to prove your point and be more fair? Put up your own money!

Cheers! -Piggy

I'm in for $25 Piggy.

SC, you gotta do this. If at least for the hell of it.

[RijkdeGooier]

This has become a very, very interesting debate indeed.

To be fair, I'm somewhat halfway here - I do believe that there are recipes for vitolas that should in theory at least, produce a 'vitola profile'. I also believe that in the past those recipes (based on the then used tobacco strains) were calculated to attempt to produce a 'marca (or linea within a marca) profile'.

Currently I believe that the recipes have not been adjusted for new strains of toacco, that the recipes are not alwyas adhered to, that the various factories are not always using the same recipes and/or tobacco... and the tobacco is not the same strain as they used to be.

As a result, the consistency of both vitola and marca have waned as was proven again only recently to me when smoking an older Monte no.2 more or less side by side with a much more recent production. Although they carried a Monte.2 label, both cigars were very different indeed.

I applaud SC for taking on this challenge and secretly hope for him to succeed, proving me wrong...

Then again, whether he does or doesn't succeed takes nothing away from my own attempt of enjoying each cigar ultimately as a stand-alone product, profiles be damned.. I understand that this is also Pig's point.

Lastly, Pig and SC have entered into a challenge they both deemed fair. Gentleman's rules dictate that it is not up to those on the sidelines, with no stake in the contest to kwetsch about the terms. I applaud both gentleman and wish SC well in his endeavour!

[PigFish]

This has become a very, very interesting debate indeed.

To be fair, I'm somewhat halfway here - I do believe that there are recipes for vitolas that should in theory at least, produce a 'vitola profile'. I also believe that in the past those recipes (based on the then used tobacco strains) were calculated to attempt to produce a 'marca (or linea within a marca) profile'.

Currently I believe that the recipes have not been adjusted for new strains of toacco, that the recipes are not alwyas adhered to, that the various factories are not always using the same recipes and/or tobacco... and the tobacco is not the same strain as they used to be.

As a result, the consistency of both vitola and marca have waned as was proven again only recently to me when smoking an older Monte no.2 more or less side by side with a much more recent production. Although they carried a Monte.2 label, both cigars were very different indeed.

I applaud SC for taking on this challenge and secretly hope for him to succeed, proving me wrong...

Then again, whether he does or doesn't succeed takes nothing away from my own attempt of enjoying each cigar ultimately as a stand-alone product, profiles be damned.. I understand that this is also Pig's point.

Lastly, Pig and SC have entered into a challenge they both deemed fair. Gentleman's rules dictate that it is not up to those on the sidelines, with no stake in the contest to kwetsch about the terms. I applaud both gentleman and wish SC well in his endeavour!

I hope that folks understand that this essentially settles very little and should have zero effect on the lives of smokers.

One smoking cigars could get lucky or unlucky with draws of cigars and find himself mystified, win or lose on luck or lack of luck alone. With a name like Smallclub, he may not prefer piramides at all....

I am not here to bust anyones balls, but sometimes SC and I go at it. We have had adversarial positions on many things on this forum due to differing view points. It goes beyond cigars, believe me!!! I imagine that if this pens out, we will all have some laughs and someone is going to buy some cigars for the cost of the entertainment. It appears that we have a few that think it is worth the price of admission and a few that don't.

I only have to say that cigar tastes are like anything else in this world that one can debate about. "I believe" that being natural products they are individuals and the groups that are the result of the Cuban industry and process makes them more random than uniform. Someone else believes differently... It is pretty 'effin simple.

I see this a two guys with hard heads wagering about a position. Frankly, that is all that I make of it... -LOL

I hope it makes for interesting reading. That is what being a forum member is about.

-the Pig

[mash]

Shlomo, how about you? You often talk about the profile of a marca. This should be in your wheelhouse.

[RijkdeGooier]

Just to be clear - it is not my intent to forment discontent on any forum.

It is however, my intent to be a bit provoking and in doing so elicit interesting responses about cigar philosophies, like the ones from PigFish and SmallClub.

Personally I enjoy exchanging different opinions which needn't lead to a general consensus. I would never pretend to know anything about cigars with sufficient authority to make sweeping statements.

The more I smoke, the less I know it seems to me.. and that is fine.

[FLB03TT]

PigFish, may I call you Piggy? As I said in my my previous post- "...I will have no horse in this race." Egging me on will serve no purpose.

What prompted me to post my thoughts was your statement- "I cannot taste brand profiles! ... there are very few who can based on actual evidence produced every time a blind taste is done."

Those remarks interested me and in an attempt to actually answer/address the question you pose a larger blind testing group would be the only way to hope to deliver valid results, thus the better odds I proposed to encourage more participants in your contest. That contest now appears to be a more personal one on one winner takes all mismatch- the term "mismatch" referring to the original odds, NOT you and Smallclub's respective heavyweight status on FOH.

At the time i posted I was enjoying am intoxicatingly good Upmann Mag. 46. This particular stick exhibited the classic tried and true Mag. 46 flavor profile, certainly nothing like a Connie No. 1- same brand, but more importantly light years different than a Siglo IV- same vitola. Perhaps I overstepped my gentlemanly bounds by proposing any alteration to your original challenge, but I'm afraid I must blame my misstep on my drunkeness following the Mag. 46. My otherwise good judgement had been clouded.

When I open my humidor to choose the evenings smoke I look in the box at the various brands and vitolas and chose who's next #1 by brand flavor profile and #2 by vitola. One day I choose one brand, the next I usually choose a different brand. I've evolved over 20 + years to this method of selection, but perhaps it's all folly. Maybe choosing based on which band artwork and/or coloration would be equally effective in providing smoking satisfaction??

Piggy, on a serious note- Can you really not differentiate between a CORO and a PSD4?

[Colt45]

Why drag Rob or anyone else into it - send each other an agreed upon number of cigars and have at it.

[nick2021]

Shlomo, how about you? You often talk about the profile of a marca. This should be in your wheelhouse.

He may not know about this thread lol

[PigFish]

Why drag Rob or anyone else into it - send each other an agreed upon number of cigars and have at it.

I did not intentionally. I would actually prefer to take longer to comment on this but won't today.

Rob is used as a datum. I don't know why he is brought up as a standard. I suppose people respect him and his opinion. I know I respect him... I love the guy, he is a friend of mine! With that said he is just another guy with opinions about cigars in a pool of smokers.

On a different level he is a cigar vendor. He is also a control point and perhaps an escrow officer. He has the means to control this in a way that two members cannot. He has a conduit to move cigars from his location to anther country easily. Since he is trusted, he can keep the game honest.

I did not bring him into it... There is a quote above somewhere using him as a reference to make or bolster a point. I think that is BS... If there is a Godwins law, perhaps there is a Presidentes law (while is see the premise absurd, I understand how people attempt to use an event, or expert to control a conversation). As said, I think that the premise of losing and argument base on the automatic inclusion of a few words stupidity at its highest form, yet I am tired of someone ostensibly speaking for him in threads representing his opinion (or their perception of his opinion) in an attempt to drive a discussion or a disagreement.

Rob is in my post for a specific reason. He is the local vendor and he is presumably trusted with the task of providing and selecting cigars for a fee. Along with running this board, last time I checked, this is what he does for a living...

I have also made a assumption that I might be wrong about. I believe he likes compelling topics on the board as long as the remain outside the realm of guns, whales and US politics... -LOL

If this is not good clean fun, he can send me an email, PM or kill the thread and it is over. It is no skin off my nose. My opinion won't die, just the thread will!

Cheers!

-Piggy