Need help understanding a best/worst cigar mindset

[RijkdeGooier]

Gentlemen (sorry mrs Beaver),

There is something I would like to understand but just don't seem to get my head around.

Many threads/polls are looking for an answer to the question what is the best/worst cigar in a certain year/format/code.

As I am just another guy fresh from the turnip truck I have trouble understanding this concept. In my, very limited, experience, I have come to look at cigars as indivdual agricultural products, which by virtue of the growing, sorting, rolling, transport and storage process have a very, very limited chance of offering the exact same experience year-on-year and even box-on-box within that year, provided the months are different.

Even within the same box there is a large opportunity for variance in taste.

Given the above variance, why is it usefull to discuss or numerically rate to the extent of 1% the best or worst cigar.

Even more so when taking into account that one man's waste is another man's gold.

Maybe we should focus on the pleasure of the experience and manage expectations within certain fairly wide corridors when it comes to taste?

Can someone please convince me why the search for the best/worst is a good and worthy pursuit?

[ErikB]

My sentiments exactly. Also - why this anal fixation with boxcodes

[ErikB]

I mean I understand, but to a degree

[garbandz]

Case in point.......... Upmann Conoisseur 1 PLM May 2011,,,,,,,,,,Several people described these as superior quality cigars.

I bought 5 boxes,and every one had identical wrappers,smelled the same, and have smoked the same(so far).

I agree they are superior to what I have smoked from before and since this batch.

I would buy these again,for this reason.

I know a guy who bought the same batch and did not find them to be any different from other batches.

Maybe I was lucky..........

RASCC MUR Sept '12,,,,,,,,,,,,bought 4 or 5 of these,because the first box I got was excellent,and all the other boxes were the same.

Maybe I was lucky..........

I have some Monte 3 boxes ,cannot recall the code now,first one was outstanding,bought 5 or 6 more of the same code.

There was some difference among wrapper colors,one box was Colorado claro,and the boxes were uniformly excellent.

Maybe I was lucky..........

R Allones Superiores......same story,I probably bought 4 of the same code,all were excellent.The next batch was not quite as good,so I looked for the first code again and got 4 more.Excellent......

There is never a guarantee with cigars,but there is clearly a good chance you can find a superior box,and if you do chances are good another box from the same batch will be the same.

I was very lucky.........

[RijkdeGooier]

Garbandz, thanks for the extensive answer - however that was not my question - I should have been clearer maybe.

I was referring to threads that start with questions like "Best current Robusto...". "Best DC..."...

The hunting for box codes, especially if one is buying over the net, I can appreciate.

[garbandz]

"Given the above variance, why is it usefull to discuss or numerically rate to the extent of 1% the best or worst cigar"

"Many threads/polls are looking for an answer to the question what is the best/worst cigar in a certain year/format/code"

Thought I was answering your question............

[fabes]

I see it as somewhat of a gauge. If someone likes the Dip 2 over the Monte 2 (as I do), then I will look at what else that person enjoys to give me ideas of what else I should try that I might like.

Clearly the "best" moniker is highly subjective and variable from one cigarr to the next even in the same box. So I will determine my "best" for myself and it doesn't matter if you disagree.

[ErikB]

Sorry Rijk, shouldn't have mentioned boxcodes, my fault

[Colt45]

I guess it's speaking generally - perhaps if you get a broad enough sampling, you can come up with a consensus as to what might currently be "best".

[Orion21]

Garbandz, thanks for the extensive answer - however that was not my question - I should have been clearer maybe.

I was referring to threads that start with questions like "Best current Robusto...". "Best DC..."...

The hunting for box codes, especially if one is buying over the net, I can appreciate.

It's just the thrill of the hunt for some cigar lovers. I have seen it over the years, that sometimes certain cigars from certain factories during a specific year are just above average. The Cuban cigar industry is veiled in mystery to most cigar smokers because the factory codes are designed to eliminate exactly what we are trying to achieve, which is identifying the best of the best and cull out the rest. It's a difficult job, but if you had the choice between buying a Cohiba Robusto rolled at El Laguito or some regional factory which would you prefer to spend your hard earned money on? That's the point of this whole exercise.

To address the "Best Current...." I tend to take those opinions with a grain of salt because everyone has different tastes. It's a good way to keep members active in the forum and be able to give their opinions on their current purchases. Some trends may be discovered, but mostly I see 50 posts with varying opinions. My advice would be to do samplers from Rob to discover what types of cigars you enjoy, then have your favorites hand picked to increase the likelihood of getting great boxes.

[wabashcr]

Even allowing for variances in the quality of an agricultural product, there are other factors involved in quality, such as blend, fermentation, and the actual rolling/construction of the cigars. So quality of the end product isn't completely unpredictable. Certainly not predictable enough to consistently rate within 1 percentage point, though.

Of course tastes are going to vary, but that's part of the fun of the hobby. We're all hobbyists, and that's part of what hobbyists do. They get together and compare, give reviews, and discuss and make various judgments about the different aspects of the hobby. Is there really any value to it, beyond the sense of community and enjoyment of those within the hobby? Maybe not. But the enjoyment we get from the discussion itself is enough justification.

[UpInSmoak]

I chase codes to a certain degree. Mainly based on others experiences. It's no guarantee but I believe it betters my chances.

As to the question of best smoking robusto, DC, etc... Pres uses a great analogy; cigars are like produce. Buy what's in season. Sometimes factories/blenders are on top of their game. When they are consistently putting our great boxes buy what's in season.

[Ubergosupro69]

They're just asking for everyone's opinions.

If you're smoking boxes of multiple robustos, it's probably safe to say which ones are generally better to your taste. The polls conveniently show differing opinions. I can't think of any examples I've seen where one cigar took a 50% majority or anything like that. It just displays general opinions. They're not worth betting your house on, but for people who are inexperienced with CC's, or who haven't bought many recent boxes, it gives them a reference point.

[beparrish]

Everyone's tastes are different, so it's hard to crown a "best" cigar. I find myself voting for my personal favorite of whatever vitola we're voting on - what I like the best. But what I like may be different than what someone else likes.

Maybe it helps that I have the palate of a billy-goat. I'm unable to distinguish "floral notes", "hints of citrus", etc...

In the end, smoke what you like, not what everyone else likes.

[FredClever]

As a beginner, sometimes I like to get a taste of the spectrum that is available. If you start out with cigars, maybe you're just curious what the hell everybody find so enjoyable about them.

For me, personally, when starting with cigars, wine, scotch, or whatever, I would hunt for a few samples of what people consider "the best", or at least "pretty top shelf". Getting a feel for the territory. I don't know, maybe its like calibrating the compass or something.

Of course if you ask 10 people you'll end up with 10 different cigars they love. But if you try all of them, you will get an idea of the spectrum and also of your own taste.

[Walt69]

Lack of experience/cash maybe. People who can't afford much might want their best shot at getting something good instead of having to spend the dough on several boxes to compare.

[RijkdeGooier]

Maybe lack of opportunity to see, feel and touch the product before buying plays a role here too..

[cigaraholic]

These days it's nice to know what's hot and what's not.

The best tobacco runs in streaks today....little streaks unfortunately.

[SparklePony]

This question has made me consider if we're not collectively engaging in Dicto Spimpliciter (aka the hasty argument fallacy in formal logic). That is, we want to believe that box codes, or a particular cigar is worth "chasing." Of course, a good cigar is subjective stuff, not anything we can work out logically, however are we really getting the "best" out there today when we seek a group answer?

Curiouser and curiouser...

[dougincanada]

Buy a dried up $1 Gurka from a convenience store out of a plastic jar, and buy a Cohiba Behike from a reputable vendor. Smoke em both if nothing else you will gain a clear understanding of bad to good flavor range. As for box codes month to month differences are subtle and may vary by roller but differences should not be large. But year to year differences can be greater, because tobacco like wine is effected by weather and soil conditions.

[PigFish]

I would tend to view the OP's question of one of philosophy over that of cigaromitry... I see this as a question of human nature.

First I feel compelled to congratulate you for 'thinking about cigars' and not blindly following gurus or myths about cigars. This is a perspective that I rarely see. People don't appear to like to break out of the 'box' and would prefer to blindly follow. I congratulate you for taking a logical perspective! I share your perspective by the way... and I have been smoking cigars for 30 years!

I see people as a mass of opinions, prejudices and beliefs. Whether we talk cigars or politics or religion as well as any of a number of topics that are not purely quantitative, a system of beliefs and prejudices are often driving factors that influence opinion. This is just my belief and prejudice, and my humble opinion...!

People are also naturally seeking the best. People are competitive. Few people want anything far below what they can afford. They would rather push the limits of what they can afford as their prejudices (and some real life experience) teach them that better products cost more, or require effort to unearth. I am not going to rationalize or judge this sentiment. I am simply stating that I believe it exists.

If the desire to 'achieve' did not exist, and there was no ostensible reward for same, there would be little value in one taking efforts (work) to achieve them. There is of course the reason that Orion points to above. It can be just plain fun...

I think there is some value to cigar experience. There are some "persons" of experience that love to share, teach and mentor. There are also charlatans and it is your jobs to decide who is who. Ultimately you will be the final arbiter of your tastes. No one will replace you in the equation.

I 'believe' that cigars are individual and I strive for an exceptional smoking experience, not the exact replica of a preceding experience. I don't believe in brand profile or a plethora of other "myths" common amongst our peer group. That is just my opinion, for what it is worth. I am a minority opinion and a black sheep in this endeavor.

Since there are bound to be correlations within groups if there are big enough, even the black sheep have company. Your question is fair and I see it as perceptive on your part. I tend to agree with your observations! My agreement, or your initial beliefs should not dissuade you from experiencing and learning. You must verify your position on your own. Once you get there, I hope you will share it with the rest of us... Regardless of your majority or minority view point, it will as legitimate as the next guys; except to you. You should treat it as fact!

Great question! -the Pig

[RijkdeGooier]

Pig,

You and I and a few others I know are in total agreement, it is all about cigar philosophy.

My own experience (also 30+ years) thought me that no two cigars even from the same box are ever the same (I've sat down with many groups smoking the same box and there are almost always significant differences)...

I try to just focus on the experience given to me by each smoke, 'live in the moment' if you will...

This of course is not intended to discount the efforts of those like Rob, who provide a valuable service to those not in a position to do so themselves, of at the very least weeding out the obvious faulty boxes. But however hard he might try, even he cannot make what is not there; a consistent cigar experience over boxes, or within boxes from the same boxcodes.

For me, I buy my cigars mostly when I or a person I trust can touch them, see them and smell them. Boxcodes are interesting but not a leading light to, although I can understand the significance if no other information is on hand.

[Smallclub]

I don't believe in brand profile

Are you saying that there's no Partagas, Montecristo, Hoyo or Punch profile? Why would you have different marcas in your stash then?

[RijkdeGooier]

Are you saying that there's no Partagas, Montecristo, Hoyo or Punch profile? Why would you have different marcas in your stash then?

Even though the question was not asked of me. Let me try to give my perspecitve here.

As part of my childrens education I plant vegetables in my garden patch on a stretch along the wall facing the West for about 20 meters running North to South. I plant tomatoes, ghurkins, paprika and other easy to grow stuff, I install an automatic sprinkler and preen them on a daily basis.

The plants located at the Southern end of the line catch the sun earlier than the Nothern most plants and receive about 1 hours worth more of sun each day.

The produce from each plant (same seeds) is sweeter to a degree to more you move Southern along the line of plants. If I were to sort the tomatoes by color from all plants I'd probably end up with each color tasting roughly but not exactly the same, with some suprises along the way.

Imagine a field of tobacco which is a lot bigger than my vegetable patch. Therein occurs the same effect. With the same results.

The sorters do not know which plant is from what part of the field, but I would wager a guess that sorting them along color lines assures that plants with similar amount of sun end up in the same patch (but not from the same soil) so the effect is somewhat mitigated.

We know from our own sneak peaks into the production process that vitolas are mixed according to amounts of the ligero, seco and volado pertinent to that vitola. The rollers do not know which plants come from a more 'southern' or 'northern' part of the field, they roll what they get from the blenders.

Now try as one might, I think it is pretty damn difficult to adhere on a very consistent basis to a 'marca or vitola specfiic' profile for all output of said vitola. Of course it will be tried and to a large extent succeed, by adherence to the process. But still we get darker and lighter shaded boxes for a certain vitola. In my experience this can allow for differences.

As a result of the entire production process the marca profiles are there, but they are not always consistent. Material that would be used for Partagas D4 in one factory could maybe be rolled into a RASS in another, using slightly different portions. Or cigars that in one factory would calssify as PD4 would classify as RASS in another, depending upon the consistency of the tasting process across factories.

In the end, it is not that there are no standards, just that Habanos as a natural product allows for variance and I as a smoker accept that.

And lets not even get into the variance over the various years of production or how rigid production standards are adhered too...

[Colt45]

The sorters do not know which plant is from what part of the field, but I would wager a guess that sorting them along color lines assures that plants with similar amount of sun end up in the same patch (but not from the same soil) so the effect is somewhat mitigated.

The rollers do not know which plants come from a more 'southern' or 'northern' part of the field, they roll what they get from the blenders.

I'm not sure what you mean by sorters - finished cigars are sorted by color, but tobacco leaves are processed in bulk together. And surely, the leaves are individual, unlike grapes processed for wine, but I guess the goal is still uniform processing.

Regardless, unless we've all been shined on, there are "recipes" for blending particular cigars - whether blended as we percieve blends to be or not (I'm not sure a cigar is blended for chocolate / caramel / etc).

Inconsistency is a sad reality of the Cuban cigar industry, but I'm personally less willing to give a pass based on the "natural product" aspect. While flavor could vary, overall quality should not, and it should not be accepted.

But that's all another topic for another time.

For what it's worth, i've come to feel that Cuban cigars have more in common than they have polarizing differences.