Newbie first wineador project

[cris77]

Good job mate... Congrats!

Please let me know if you want input. I see these a teachable moments to the whole community, where I am not just talking about my projects (as ususal).

Cheers! -Piggy

Piggy "carte Blanche"...please do put more than your 5c in as knowledge is a valuable commodity...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cris77]

Ok so i have a weeks data...i'm now also measuring external temps to get a baseline

i placed the logger in different areas of the wineador with a couple of days intervals

the variance in the latter days is an addition of 50+ sticks to the wineador

comment away...

[JohnS]

My only comment Cris is that with the incredible amount of rain in the past week-and-a-half in Sydney and the high ambient humidity about as a result of that, the data suggests that the temperature and relative humidity in your wineador is fantastically stable at the moment.

[PigFish]

I will probably have to do this over the course of a few weeks. My time posting is at a minimum these days due to my schedule. My current 'project' has got me commuting more than 3 hours a day and that is killing my personal life and taking me away from a lot of posting.

I think we should start with some caveats. I am not here to 'grade' or determine what works and what does not work! That is in the eye of the beholder. If you are pulling cigars out of your humidor, regardless of what it is or how it is made and you are happy; it works! That is my very straightforward and simple definition.

Lets start with a little humidor theory. A humidor is nothing more than a space that in some way controls or separates cigars from the environment. That is the beginning and end of it. ALL humidors, passive, controlled or semi-controlled are all at the mercy of and subject to the environment that they exist in. For the sake of the discussion, this is the macro environment, or the ambient condtiions.

To distill this down to the root level, a perfect ambient requires no humidor. The closer then one gets to the ambient as far as preferred conditions are concerned, the easier the humidor is to build. The easier it is to build, the cheaper it 'can' be.

There are passive and active humidors. Passive humidors are not controlled by anything except the environment and passive functions not aided by powered, or active appliances. Humidors exist in a combination of 5 states. Perfect, too warm, too cold, too wet or too dry. The desired level is up to the administrator and his tastes.

All humidors are 'driven' by the macro environment to some degree. Compensating for it, or insulation to it in essence defines the humidor. Not all states are of interest to all players. Some care about rH and not heat. Some argue that there is no link. For the record, THEY ARE WRONG!

Briefly about data logging and then I have to run.

Data logging should be done in the 'open space' of a humidor. Why? If you cannot control the rH and the air temperature, you cannot control the humidor or the conditions that exist in your cigars. Data logging is beneficial in different locations in a humidor to test for parity. Data logging should be done on a plastic or non-hygroscopic substance elevated away from cigars and boxes. The space needs to be tested, not the cigars. The space will define the cigars, or the cigars the space based on certain factors that I will get into later.

Data logging should be done at the resolution of your desired degree of precision. If you sample at too broad a distance, you will miss what is actually happening inside.

More when I return... -Piggy

[jimsta10]

Great post Chris!

I new to this wineador setup so sorry if this newbie offends anyone. Would really appreciate any assistance given. i have an existing compressor wine cooler with humidity control. i have found it extremely inconsistent with both temp and humidity. eg. warm on top, cooler on bottom...lower RH on top, higher RH on bottom.

Thus i have decided to run a fan from the bottom so that the air can be circulated. the read is a lot better and more consistent.

questions.

1. is it bad to have the fan on 24/7?

2. should i add a 1kg bag of beads at the bottom (close to where the water or condensation is?) or do i need 2kg of beads?

3. sourcing spanish cedar in melbourne is nearly impossible (Rare Woods has closed down)...any ideas where is the nearest?

wine cooler is about 45cm (w)x 45cm (d) x 165cm (h).

thank you so much in advance.

Jimmy

[cris77]

Hey mate,

Where you say cooler and warmer what are the actual readings? Are you keeping track of the fluctuations? As you are in Melbourne I would assume that the external temperature fluctuations shouldn't be too drastic. I'm not too familiar with the compressor system but from what I have read the cooling bit should be much more powerful than a thermoelectric unit such as mine although air circulation is dependant on air flow, temperature and other factors.. How packed is your unit? .you mentioned condensation.. Is that near where the compressor unit lives?

Regarding the sourcing of Spanish cedar, I don't know about Melbourne but I got mine from a supplier here in Sydney.

~edit~ on second thought call up carbatec.. They sell wood working tools and have a store in Melbourne I believe.. I think they may be able to point you in the right direction..

[jimsta10]

Hey mate,

Where you say cooler and warmer what are the actual readings? Are you keeping track of the fluctuations? As you are in Melbourne I would assume that the external temperature fluctuations shouldn't be too drastic. I'm not too familiar with the compressor system but from what I have read the cooling bit should be much more powerful than a thermoelectric unit such as mine although air circulation is dependant on air flow, temperature and other factors.. How packed is your unit? .you mentioned condensation.. Is that near where the compressor unit lives?

Regarding the sourcing of Spanish cedar, I don't know about Melbourne but I got mine from a supplier here in Sydney.

~edit~ on second thought call up carbatec.. They sell wood working tools and have a store in Melbourne I believe.. I think they may be able to point you in the right direction..

Hi, Ive been playing around with the cooling system of my wine cooler. in short, its really doing my head in. top shelves are averaging about 17c and middle 16 bottom 15c not that much difference. however, when i arrived home from today, i noticed that the RH has going up to 80 all around the cooling unit and at the back, their was ice building... . i turned off the unit and left the door open. pointed the fan towards the back so that it can melt the ice....

1 hours later all was well and it was back to normal...ive adjusted a few more settings to so that i can monitor the fluctuation and variations (if any).

an hour has passed, and temp is a constant 18c-19c however the RH is way below average setting at 55RH... now i have added some beads (250gram) at the bottom and a some container distilled water separately...hopefully this can boost it up to 65-70%...

im going to give this another few days until i have had enough...then i will go out and by a thermoelectric...

will keep you posted (if youre stil interested) LOL....

room temperature is about 19-21C, i might just the power off from the wine cooler...but cant, because i will have 8 bottles of Hill of Graces (Red Wine) in there...and dont really want to up the temp to 20c...

Cheers for responding.

Jim

1 hour

[cris77]

Jim,

There are far more experienced users within this forum than me that can give you far better guidance but... My original trade as a scientist makes me inquisitive.. From what you are saying there is a fair bit of build up in your unit.. If ice is forming then there is a fair amount of moisture that is cooling below freezing point and making the ice...

The aim of a good humidor is to maintain a temperate environment for your cigars.. But by opening the cooler and thawing it.. You are not achieving the desired balance.. Also if you are going the bead path you need to ensure that the amount of beads is sufficient for the enclosure.. Keep in mind that you have several factors within your cooler... Active cooling from the compressor and now you have introduced beads that aim to regulate the humidity within your enclosure.. I strongly recommend that you spend some time reading some of the threads within this forum.. Particularly the ones that Piggy writes as his take on active and passive environments is pretty spot on..

Finally I humbly recommend that you review what you want to achieve.. Unfortunately humidors are not like modern mobile phones.. That can act as several devices in one.. Camera, phone, email, etc.. A humidor is just that.. A humidor, a device to keep and maintain your precious sticks healthy and smokeable.. Once you put wine storage in the picture you really need to see that wine storage requires different ambient factors than cigars... I might get shot down by saying this as I'm sure there are plenty of users that are able to keep wines and cigars in their humidors..

As I said I'm no expert and this is just my humble opinion..

[jimsta10]

thanks mate. appreciate the comments. BTW i have read some of Piggys essays...as technical as it can get, i am trying various options that can suit was i currently have. this way from experience i should learn the do's and don't...

cheers again

[jimsta10]

cant think straight while working....its one of those situations where i cant give up....just looking into this item:

WILLHI 220V Digital Air Humidity Controller WH8040 1%~99% RH HM-40 Sensor

retailing around $35AUD..i should be able to set the humidity low point to be say 62....to turn the cooler on if it passes this level...then turn it off when it reaches say 72...its nearly winter here...so not really fuss about the temp setting as it is averaging around 16-18'C without too much change...

i really need to conquer this things...

[cris77]

A quick question, if your cooler was empty..does it keep an even temperature and humidity?

if not, have you checked that the unit is sealed properly?

[jimsta10]

A quick question, if your cooler was empty..does it keep an even temperature and humidity?

if not, have you checked that the unit is sealed properly?

Hi mate, this is something i havent tried yet...but i know where youre going with this...i will turn if off during the weekend and monitor..i dont think it has an issue...

[cris77]

Good stuff.. Get a baseline reading and work from there.. Good luck!

[PigFish]

Here is a little of what I see here Cris.

Overall, there are several things that concern me. First I am going to talk about method for a moment. I believe that I read somewhere in your post that your sample rate is about 5 minutes. That is way, way too long. There is a lot that can happen in a humidor in 5 minutes that should be observed.

There are two ways to look at data logging. One way is to establish a trend. This is pretty much what you are doing now. The other is a high resolution approach to look for precision and to establish a path to fix problems. Currently, you are driving right over the problems and not really seeing them. You may know this already, but I have to take a position of one not knowing.

Your first days chart of rH is telling. Here is what I see.

This is a TE cooler, I can more or less tell by the way it works. As I am guessing, I am seeing that there is not a significant delta in temperature on that day from your macro to your humidor setting. I am guessing that on that day, the room was relatively cool.

We might as well kill the myth of TE coolers not dehydrating right here and now. Your dehydration cycle is really not bad, about what the name makers get from their humidors but it all depends on how any individual 'judges' performance and quality of stability. A 5 rH drop is not bad at all.

What concerns me here is the duration of the cooling cycles. I will get into more detail on that later. I moved your chart to an ex-ref in CAD and measured some of the cycles. From apparent switch on time to switch off time (cooling cycle) you are running this thing from 35 to 50 minutes. This spells trouble to me.

I am going to run off on a tangent here a little about why I prefer compressor coolers. These protracted run cycles can have a huge impact on overall stability. I am not saying that you might not be able to overcome them with some cleaver design, but overall, this looks like a frozen TE cooler 'stalagtite' waiting to happen. If you see a hot day, with these long cycles, you may find a you are making popsicles in the back of your humidor. WATCH OUT FOR THIS! You had better make sure that one of your drawers and cigars are NOT touching or coming anywhere near your cold plate. Just a heads up.

I prefer the fast cooling and efficiency of the compressor cooler. They are not easy to get a handle on, but they cool fast and can transfer a lot of heat in short order. That is just my preference.

On the short term, it appears that your unit is settling in some and the performance is improving. I think that this is an illusion and I don't believe it is going to last... Sorry!

From what I gather so far, at least at this delta and over the short term of one day the system looks like it works. I hate to be a real downer, but I don't think it is going to last. Enough for my downer predictions!

Lets parse some more charts.

Oh, lastly on the first chart. It appears that your baseline rH in your humidor is about 65rH. You need to keep this in mind as we look at other charts.

Hmmm... After studying a bit, it looks like the first chart was also in a drawer and not in the free space in the humidor. You need (if you want to data log for real value) to move your logger outside of an area filled with hygroscopic material. Reading the material is not going to tell you how well your humidor is working...! It just tells you what your cigars are reading.

As we move to the next drawer, this is what I see. I see that your ambient in this drawer is lesser affected by the humidor. This is telling. What I see that that according to your logger that your cigars are considerably higher in rH than what the baseline set by drawer one indicates. This is why we don't data log closed spaces in humidor until we are done with the open spaces.

Look closely at the drawer 2 rH highs and tell me what you see... What I see is that these cigars are notably higher than the baseline set by the drawer 1 and that 'the cigars' are the driving force of rH in your humidor.

Why is this bad? It is bad because instead of making the active humidor that drives the cigars, you are making cigars the driving force of your humidor. This means that you are out of control of the cigars and the cigars are controlling you. With the differential in these two places, as I see it, you will eventually be drying out all of your cigars. It is only a matter of time before the water once in the cigars has moved from them to a puddle somewhere in the humidor. I hate to be harsh here, but these are the tea leaves that I am reading...

Lets move on.

I am going down to post #27 now. It is pretty apparent to me what is happening here. Of course, humidor performance is based on the ambient temperature of the room and I don't have that data.

Something is happening here over time. Either the temperature of the room has gone up, or the design as a whole is breaking down. You will have to tell me.

In the beginning the humidor was making an effort to cool while being passively conditioned for water by your cigars. If you read my analysis above, you will note that my belief is that you were simply supporting your humidor with your cigars and not the other way around. A CONTROLLED HUMIDOR MUST DRIVE CIGARS AND NOT BE SUPPORTED BY THEM. This is a crutch and it leads to conditions that are outside of your control, and therefore your humidor becomes an UNCONTROLLED humidor...

I see this system breaking down... The macro view of the chart in post #27 looks like a clear signal of the degrading of the stability of this design when viewed over time. My apologies; I hate to come off as an a-hole here! I just don't want to see you ruin good cigars.

You should pull the cigars from this project and make the humidor work on its own without risking your cigars!!! If the 'controlled' humidor needs cigars to work, it will never work...! (MHO) I think you should pull your cigars and work on the humidor stability first. If it works without cigars, it should work with them later!

I don't really know the whole story here and I am only guessing but I have been in the exact place you are here many times before. Take my advice and talk for what it is worth; I am just a voice over the internet. Just be wary and if don't get discouraged. If you beat your head against the wall long enough, you will can the results you want. You just have to stick with it and try new ideas, lick the problems one at a time when they come up.

That is my best advice so far, and my 2 cents.

-Ray

[cris77]

That is my best advice so far, and my 2 cents.

-Ray

Thanks so very much for your input Ray, believe it or not it is very much appreciated.

I am collating more info, specifically as per your previous post, in the empty area of the humidor but i will adjust the frequency of the data logging.

I agree with what you are saying and it does very much seem like the cigars are driving the data.. each drawer has a different amount of sticks and are at different levels.

Regarding the drawers touching the plate, no such thing.. i've made sure that the drawers do not touch the back end of the wineador.

I will get back to the drawing board and restart the process...once again thanks for the invaluable comments.

Cristian

[muzz]

Great post Chris!

I new to this wineador setup so sorry if this newbie offends anyone. Would really appreciate any assistance given. i have an existing compressor wine cooler with humidity control. i have found it extremely inconsistent with both temp and humidity. eg. warm on top, cooler on bottom...lower RH on top, higher RH on bottom.

Thus i have decided to run a fan from the bottom so that the air can be circulated. the read is a lot better and more consistent.

questions.

1. is it bad to have the fan on 24/7?

2. should i add a 1kg bag of beads at the bottom (close to where the water or condensation is?) or do i need 2kg of beads?

3. sourcing spanish cedar in melbourne is nearly impossible (Rare Woods has closed down)...any ideas where is the nearest?

wine cooler is about 45cm (w)x 45cm (d) x 165cm (h).

thank you so much in advance.

Jimmy

I'm on the hunt for spanish cedar and will let you know what turns up. I'm looking Australia wide.