cigarbreak Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Some people don't mind doing it and some people don't mind paying for it so all is fair in a free market Totally agree with this statement. And I would buy it as an investment if I had the means, in addition to buying some for personal/sharing aging purposes. As for BOTL/SOTL 'etiquette' IMO the premium i would charge for boxes i bought for investment, and aged and took care of for ten+ years is the reservation price of the market as that is the purpose i bought them for so I wouldn't lose sleep over it. But the closer the person is to me who wants to buy the whole box (and not just accept a stick or two to indulge in with me) I would factor in a discount i'd be comfortable with.
muzz Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I've only got 3 small humidiors at home so really don't have the room yet. I do however have a fairly large wine fridge that I don't mind drinking theough and setting up as a humidor. The thight has crossed my mind to purchasse and age rather than always smoking young sticks but I don't think I could part with them after all that time and care.
greenpimp Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Cigars are to smoke. Buying them as investments feeds a market of non-smokers and drives up prices for certain cuban cigars that become unapproachable for most cuban cigar enthusiasts, IMO. And no, I don't buy into the "if you can't afford it, oh well," justifying logic. They have always been expensive, for sure, but the speculating has placed some of them in a realm where very few can afford them, and even fewer actually SMOKE them. I have been lucky enough over the years to acquire more than a few wonderful boxes of cigars that have increased greatly in value. I have been offered a good deal of money for some of them. However I never bought them as an investment. I bought them to enjoy, with myself and my friends. I gift or trade my "special" cigars to friends and fellow BOTL. Selling them at whatever the market will bear corrupts the passionate little hobby of cigars I have been enjoying for the last 15 years. Only my opinion, of course. But we all must accept that our actions as consumers and vocal cigar enthusiasts do have consequences. Self-admitted cigar "flippers" have become more prevalent in some of the cigar shops I happen in over the past few years. I find it odious.
Colt45 Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 While collecting / flipping is not really for me, I guess I don't care what one does with their cigars. The one thing that does come to mind though, is that if one does not have iron clad proof of provenance, I would never consider buying. 1
Popular Post mi000ke Posted March 19, 2015 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2015 OK, here is some rough data. I searched on "vintage cigars" and came up with two vendors who sell aged cigars (all CCs). I looked for a sample of cigars they sold aged as well as had in current stock, so I could compare the aged price to the current price. I assume these vendors have a pretty good idea of the value of aged cigars in today's market. Using the present-value-of-a -future-amount formula, I computed the compound annual interest represented by the price increase realized by holding the cigars as long as the vendors did. (I know - I probably have too much time on my hands, which wouuld be better spent smoking.) That is, the computed return represents the % price would have had to increase each year during the aging period to get the price from the current price up to the aged price. Anyway, here are the results: Bolivar corona gigante (2008 vintage): $372 current (box of 25) vs $432 aged = 2.1% return per year over the 7-year period Upmann Connie 1 (2008): 237 current (box of 25) vs 284 aged = 2.5% return/year over 7 years Cohiba Sig VI (2008): 91 current (box of 3) vs 105 aged = 2.2% return/year over 7 years Cohiba Lancero (2009): 107 current (box of 5) vs 118 aged = 1.7% return/year over 6 years To put that in perspective, if you invested all your cigar money in the stock market 7 years ago just after the crash, you would have realized about a 17% average annual return per year over the past 7 years. Even if you were unlucky enough to put it all in the market the day before the crash when the market peaked, you would still have realzied about 4% per year up to today. Even getting caught by the worst financial debacle since the great depression, you still would come out ahead by twice as much as investing in cigars. Kids - smoke em, don't invest in 'em. 6
Habana Mike Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Understandable with mildly aged standard production cigars. Take a stab at 10-15 year old cigars or some of the more recent limited/regional releases. I believe your results would be quite different. 1
mrsgucia Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Dr. Joe? Yes, that's a correct answer to "cigars as investments"
TCContender Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Good cigars are like good wine, buy the very best you can afford. If fortune smiles on you and your investment appreciates, you can sell for a profit, if the investment does not increase in value, pop a cork or light it up. From one who has won and lost in the stock market, there were many times when I kicked myself for not buying a box of Davidoff Dom Perignons or a magnum of Château Petrus instead of the market investment that lost value. 1
canadianbeaver Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Here are a a few factors why I think cigars are excellent investments. Good investments can hold their value IMO, and be liquid, not just show high returns. A cigar collection, perhaps more so than wine because there are fewer of them to identify and discuss. Depending on where you live, the taxation factor can increase the value of a box of cigars by multiple times. As soon as a box of cigars crosses the border into that country, the value of that box now has a new value, from both a selling price and insurable rate. (more about that in a minute). Should I decide to stop smoking cigars for whatever reason, that day I could sell my cigars for at least what I paid for them, if not more without breaking a sweat. Most possessions in my house would have to have a negotiation, auction, garage sale, whatever. After I die, my children will be able to count my cigar collection among the assets of our home worth some dough. The same can be said if I suddenly need money for something. The value, as long as I take excellent care of them, will always be liquid. My insurance company considers my cigar collection a "Collection" and part of my household contents. So yes, I consider cigars to be an excellent, safe investment. 3
polarbear Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Am I the only one who gets this depressed, sinking feeling when thinking about selling cigars? 3
mi000ke Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Understandable with mildly aged standard production cigars. Take a stab at 10-15 year old cigars or some of the more recent limited/regional releases. I believe your results would be quite different. If you have any data on those it's pretty easy to compute the return. I just went with the data I found.
earthson Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 I plan on doing so in about a year or so. Some notoriously good RE, LE, or others that age very well. On another forum, I've been watching what people sell good vintage smokes for (specifically from the 96-98 era) and compare that against current pricing. It's nothing I would do for a serious return - just something for vacation/fun money.
Firebender Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 I sell the cigars to make room and to get rid of cigars I no longer want.
saintsmokealot Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 As I won't hate on the person buying for investment the only return I expect is smoking deliciously aged habanos.
Smallclub Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 On another forum, I've been watching what people sell good vintage smokes for (specifically from the 96-98 era) and compare that against current pricing. Do you realize that these people purchased this aged stock at a time when the market was totally different from what it is now?
earthson Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Do you realize that these people purchased this aged stock at a time when the market was totally different from what it is now? Yeah, I misspoke (mistyped). I meant that I looked at the return on roughly what the cigars cost back then. Wife was calling me to help with Junior's bath, so I hastily hit send. Whoops!
Jeremy Festa Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 This is not realistic. Shipping ANY tobacco product from (and to) these countries is not only illegal, but extremely watched. Shipping a couple rare boxes is a thing, but more than that, and the sender risks huge fines and even jail time. Basically you (theorical) are asking a friend to act as a BOTL so that you can make a profit in the future… Correct. On large scale. But my friends (overseas) or domestic are more than willing, and happy to do this. So it is realistic. Mostly my snowboard, skate and surf mates here and there throughout Europe. We carry out the odd favour and help each other in anyway we can. Whether it be with travel, accommodation, introductions or sending the odd box of cigars that you don't have access to, while not travelling. I may send them an Aussie shaped surfboard or collectible skate deck in exchange or put them up for a night or two while they are traveling here. And 95% of them don't actually smoke cigars. I haven't sold any from my overseas acquisitions, as I only ever get the odd box here and there. Like others, most of my cigars are shared. Sometimes even when I get a chance to frequent "the deck." However the cigars that I have sold for double in very little time was not actively planned. So my reasoning is, what if it was planned? I can see cigars as fantastic investments. I know the subject matter well (better than the stock market) and I am passionate about them. Like someone into art, wine, property or stocks. Know the subject matter and read the market movements and try to anticipate trends, then there is absolutely no problem and I might have fun while doing it. Might smoke some too! Sent from my iPhone
Lotusguy Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Understandable with mildly aged standard production cigars. Take a stab at 10-15 year old cigars or some of the more recent limited/regional releases. I believe your results would be quite different. Dead on.
Smallclub Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Correct. On large scale. But my friends (overseas) or domestic are more than willing, and happy to do this. So it is realistic. And 95% of them don't actually smoke cigars. So my reasoning is, what if it was planned? I can see cigars as fantastic investments. I know the subject matter well (better than the stock market) You cited Spain France and Andorra; to begin with, asking people who don't smoke cigars and don't have the basic knowledge, to purchase full boxes in these countries is risky, for the less. That's a good way to become the proud owner of a box of wind tunnels or tent pegs… As for the large scale: something that can be lost by the french or spanish post, intercepted by customs when leaving a country or when entering an other country, that can be mistreated during transport, that can not be assured as its export by individuals is illegal, is more a high risk bet than an investment….
Jeremy Festa Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 You cited Spain France and Andorra; to begin with, asking people who don't smoke cigars and don't have the basic knowledge, to purchase full boxes in these countries is risky, for the less. That's a good way to become the proud owner of a box of wind tunnels or tent pegs… As for the large scale: something that can be lost by the french or spanish post, intercepted by customs when leaving a country or when entering an other country, that can be mistreated during transport, that can not be assured as its export by individuals is illegal, is more a high risk bet than an investment…. Maybe so. But a couple emails. Contact with in-store staff and I must have been lucky to date! Sent from my iPhone
polarbear Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 You cited Spain France and Andorra; to begin with, asking people who don't smoke cigars and don't have the basic knowledge, to purchase full boxes in these countries is risky, for the less. That's a good way to become the proud owner of a box of wind tunnels or tent pegs… If you're looking at cigars as an investment, boxes that are still sealed are worth far more than ones opened for inspection You wouldn't know you got a box of tent pegs until you decided to keep them and smoke them
Lotusguy Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 User USA is the prime example for buying cigars as investments. Kudos to him. 1
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