The older, the better?

[emr]

There are multiple theories and ideas around aging Cuban cigars; what do you think?

Share some of your experiences with well aged CCs?

Have you had an “over-aged” cigar? Is there such thing as “over-aging”?

[Habana Mike]

From my experience older does not always equal better.

Cigars can reach a peak and then begin to lose their essence though remain smokeable for years to come. Some cigars remain (or become) phenomenal after many many years. Some cigars simply fade out at some point and, while still smokeable, provide nothing in terms of taste and aroma.

Many cigars are much better with a few years of age on them, though most cigars of late are approachable much younger than in the past.

Regardless if a cigar was not a good cigar at first it won't necessarily become a good cigar with time.

There are exceptions to all of these opinions.

[Fuzz]

Just like wine, some cigars need age, others do not. Though it all boils down to the individual. Some people like to smoke cigars young, others do not. I personally love young PLPC, my mate Jase prefers them with 5 yrs age on them, but we both enjoy Des Dieux with 5+yrs age.

[earthson]

Cigars can definitely be over-aged, to where they all start tasting similar.

I GENERALLY prefer CC with 8 or less years on them, but then again, I don't buy Cohibas and typically steer clear of the RE/LE/GR hype

[Baldy]

From my experience older does not always equal better.

Cigars can reach a peak and then begin to lose their essence though remain smokeable for years to come. Some cigars remain (or become) phenomenal after many many years. Some cigars simply fade out at some point and, while still smokeable, provide nothing in terms of taste and aroma.

Many cigars are much better with a few years of age on them, though most cigars of late are approachable much younger than in the past.

Regardless if a cigar was not a good cigar at first it won't necessarily become a good cigar with time.

There are exceptions to all of these opinions.

X42

[Ginseng]

Regardless if a cigar was not a good cigar at first it won't necessarily become a good cigar with time.

Yes, of course a cigar can age-out or expire. I have some 40-year old Montecristos in tubo that were delicate at 30 years but are now almost completely flavorless. Mind you, not every one of them, but rather more and more of them as time progresses is what I'd presume. Like radioactive half life or LD50.

Think of it by way of this hypothetical scenario. Take a supply of 20 boxes of a given cigar. You smoke an entire box in June of each year. In year 1, you might have zero cigars that you would regard as "expired." At year 5, maybe 2 that were expired. At year 10, 7 expired. Year 15's box yields 16 expired. And an entire box of hot air tubes in the 20th year. In other words, an increasing, accelerating proportion of expired cigars with the passage of time.

As for "expiration" itself, I find it reasonable and useful to define it as when a cigar has developed such that the enjoyable qualities of the smoking experience from an earlier time are no longer present to a satisfactory degree. I believe I've tried to keep that mechanism-independent as there is quite a lot of unsubstantiated hypothesizing on the topic of "how" what happens in aging actually happens. However, I've left quite a bit of latitude for the subjective aspect of smoking and tasting.

As to the usage of terms like "better" I refer to Habana Mike's comment. A poor cigar is not necessarily the same thing as a poorly smoking cigar. Some excellent cigars are just hard to enjoy when young. Or at least it used to be that way more. I think Mike is referring to quality of materials, the leaf, as opposed to "smoking enjoyably."

Wilkey

[Sophistic]

depends on the cigars. would always pick a 2 year old monte over a 7y but do the opposite when its about upmann/pl/hoyo.

[Colt45]

So cigars, sometimes for the better, sometimes the worse, can and often do change over time. Do they lose their essence to the air around them, or cellular decay, or bits of both. Would they change in a vacuum....

[Heawns]

So far having smoked 10 Partagas Lonsdales (2002), a box of La Gloria cubana no.2 (1998), several boxes of LGC no.3 (2002), and various Partagas SdC (98-2007), it seems it varies.

The LGC M.d'or no.2 were great up until late 2012 (I got them in 2010 or so). They started tasting a bit hollow at that point, although a peppery taste was very prominent as well as occasional creaminess (very creamy at times). The first half became a rather dull affair, then the pepper and cream aspect set in but nothing much else showed up to me.

I still have a couple left, maybe they won't be as tedious.

Somewhat similar the Partagas Lonsdales had something of a one dimensional taste, very woodsy-creamy. I didn't find it thrilling, though some people smoking these did. Not as tedious.

Best vintage was 1998 Partagas SDC no 1 (smoked those in 2013). Surprisingly strong. Reminds me of the much younger Bolivar PC I am smoking right now. The SdC no 3 from 2007 are still rather bold.

Unfortunately I smoked all the LGC no.3 a year ago, but they still had plurality of flavors.

If speaking of younger cigars, I know I don't really like the San Cristobal El Principe with more than 2 years age. They are still flavorful of course but I prefer the salty milked coffee taste to be pronounced as in the very fresh boxes. I imagine that is what a pirate would smoke....

edit:

Of course I didn't actually smoke these Partagas cigars when several years younger to compare (yet), but it would be reasonable to guess they tasted more bold.

[Hash]

From my experience, cigars tend to fade and lose their character , i had this experience with the Cohiba Sublimes, on the other hand the DC are aging very well. But in general 2-3 years is enough.

[Heawns]

So cigars, sometimes for the better, sometimes the worse, can and often do change over time. Do they lose their essence to the air around them, or cellular decay, or bits of both. Would they change in a vacuum....

I hear keeping them in tubes, zip-lock bags, and of course an even humidity, can help them from going bad/bland and slowing down or altering the ageing process

I wouldn't really know from experience.

[joeypots]

One must consider the relationship of the cigar's age and how it has been kept. There's loads of info about oxidation and age out there. Generally a rich cigar that coats the mouth with smoke will age well, or at least that's what I've determined. That cigar will age differently in a desk top that's opened daily than it will, for instance, in a cabinet, or a tube. Lots of guys use coolers that are kept closed, and pretty much air tight, for long term aging. Havana cigars are much more approachable now than they were 8 years ago. Also, many overly moist cigars taste harsh and bitter. Don't confuse age with proper RH.

My .02$

[Colt45]

I hear keeping them in tubes, zip-lock bags, and of course an even humidity, can help them from going bad/bland and slowing down or altering the ageing process

We have a number of members who bag and / or foil wrap their cigars. In the past I've wondered / asked if bagging simply slows down the process - simply making it take longer to reach state x, or if it changes what happens. That is, might it allow for maturation while reducing the detrimental effects of time.

[Puros Y Vino]

I've had some great experiences with aged cigars.

I've smoked some clear Havanas from the 1920's/30's/40's and 50's that were stellar. Very unique flavours seem to develop over the years. I've also smoke a lot of early 60's & 70's CC's that were full of life. The viability of a cigar will vary of course but so far I've only had one "dud". A 1985 Davidoff Dom Perignon. It was a pleasure to smoke it but a lot of the flavours were muted and from what I hear, they were blended to be a light cigar. In contrast, a 1970 Davidoff No 1 had plenty of kick by the time I hit the halfway point.

I wouldn't worry too much about chasing vintage cigars down. Age your own. It will take time and patience but at least you'll be able to take note on how they progress vs grabbing an older stick and experiencing it the one time. I myself am taking both approaches. Burying new stock and forgetting about it and grabbing some older and vintage cigars when I can. I've only been smoking about 6 years so I haven't really had the change to age my own. Some of my first box purchase are now into their 5th year which depending on marca makes a huge difference, or none at all. But that approach is a bit more interesting as you get the chance to sample them from their birth and see how they progress.

[dvickery]

Whew ... Talk about every urban myth about aging cigars being crammed into one small thread ... It's all here .

Aged ( by derrek ) cigars don't even reach peak strength until 10 to 15 years ... Best years just now are about '89 to '94 for smoking ... Aged (by derrek) cigars from late 90's (say 96 97 98 ) are starting just now going beyond great to whatever comes next .

Guys ... You have to realize that aged cigars will never be young or "bold" again ... They change ... If this change is what you like ... Then age your cigars ... If it's not what you are looking for ... Then by all means smoke em young .

For the record ... No cigar aged from young by me has EVER " expired " ... They just move on to betterness .

Not trying to sound snobby ... But geeze guys .

Derrek

[emr]

Thank you all for your thorough comments.

I don't personally care much for cigars that aged beyond 7 to 10 years. Maybe I enjoy a bit of wildness that is usually missing in older cigars.

[Ginseng]

I wouldn't worry too much about chasing vintage cigars down. Age your own. It will take time and patience but at least you'll be able to take note on how they progress vs grabbing an older stick and experiencing it the one time. I myself am taking both approaches. Burying new stock and forgetting about it and grabbing some older and vintage cigars when I can...that approach is a bit more interesting as you get the chance to sample them from their birth and see how they progress.

A rational and constructive approach, Frank. The journey is the thing, is it not?

We have a number of members who bag and / or foil wrap their cigars. In the past I've wondered / asked if bagging simply slows down the process - simply making it take longer to reach state x, or if it changes what happens. That is, might it allow for maturation while reducing the detrimental effects of time.

In a nutshell, no one really knows. There isn't a ton of empirical evidence or documentary accounts out there. Conceptually, it's straightforward: age-related changes boil down to chemistry. Chemistry in the aging of organic materials usually boil down to oxidative reactions.

One must consider the relationship of the cigar's age and how it has been kept. There's loads of info about oxidation and age out there...That cigar will age differently in a desk top that's opened daily than it will, for instance, in a cabinet, or a tube. Lots of guys use cauldrons that are kept closed, and pretty much air tight, for long term aging.

When talking about reaction chemistry one could delve into important but technical aspects of reversibility and reaction order. But at the broadest level, reducing exposure to moisture and oxygen will retard limit these aging reactions with the practical effect of "slowing down" aging. On this point, there can be no rational rebuttal. After all, why is the United States Declaration of Indpendence stored in an airtight case filled with dry argon gas instead of in a box on the president's desk?

Whew, that's a lot to take in and it seems like the OP has gotten a taste for the question that he was seeking.

Wilkey

[Maplepie]

In a nutshell, no one really knows. There isn't a ton of empirical evidence or documentary accounts out there. Conceptually, it's straightforward: age-related changes boil down to chemistry. Chemistry in the aging of organic materials usually boil down to oxidative reactions.

Wilkey... The reductionist thinks like that (no pun intended ) and therefore he is (we are) good at chemistry. But we all know there are way too many other factors.

Mainly the depolymerisation of tars and the cracking of long chained fatty molecules. I personally think oxidation has little to do with it. But what do I know?

The reductionist is narrow sighted towards the broad picture. That's why I'm also a philosopher.

Addendum: Perhaps a hermetically sealed cigar is the only way to determine the true effects of oxidation. I remember you brining this up a few times... Have you sealed a cigar airtight (ampoule/clean sealed plastic/tin/etc) before?

[Ginseng]

Well, if I had a grant for a lab and an endless supply of Habanos, I could surely research the subject more deeply.

Aside from chaotic and quantum processes, I believe practical analytical problems are soluble (chemistry pun). But sometimes you just have to draw the line somewhere or risk the "glaze over" effect. I'm thinking we've already passed that rubicon.

Wilkey

[Baldy]

My simple minded opinion is; Me likey age cigars.

Some more so than others. Prefer aged cigars more so than young cigars. Almost all cigars I've come across are better with some age on them. Keep in mind my taste buds waxes and wane with time too. Can't smell nearly half as good as I could 20 years ago.

[OleOle]

Seems that it's a pretty subjective area of discussion, but what I'm wondering about is are there any areas of broad agreement here?

Like for example, are there any 'rule of thumb' type observations that can be made (and yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule) but would it be possible to say that, "Generally speaking, cigars that are full strength age better"? or, if there are any general observations about aging, what might they be?

[emr]

The most fascinating aspect of a Cuban cigar is that over time the taste evolves and changes. Like wine, the chemical changes in the aging process of cigars are not fully understood. The one thing that is for certain is that like wine, the aging period is measured in decades.

One of the most commonly made misperceptions is that “aging cigars” means laying your cigars down in your box for a couple of years and they will become better tasting. However, in reality the aging process is quite complicated and can be sectioned out in four different stages: stick period, first maturation, second maturation and third maturation.

During the stick period the amount of ammoniac smell is at its highest. This is because when cigars are being rolled, the leaves are moistened. That causes an accelerated rate of fermentation which releases ammonia. The large presence of ammonia in a newly rolled cigar causes a very unpleasant smell and taste. Over 90% of the ammoniac smells will be gone in the first few months and 95% to 99% will be gone within the first year. Cigars should not be consumed during the stick period.

During the first maturation, the cigar starts to produce pleasant aromas and flavors. This is due to the continuous fermenting of the cigar. Within the first maturation one of the biggest changes you will notice is the disappearance of the initial bitter, harsh taste. The reason for this is that as time allows more fermentation, the nicotine breaks down and that outcome is a weaker, smoother taste. To give you an idea of general maturation periods of different cigars:

• Mild cigars such as “ Romeo y Juliet and H Upmann” take around 2 – 5 years to fully complete the maturation period.
• Medium cigars such as “Montecristo and Cohiba” take 5 – 8 years.
• Full bodied cigars such as “Partagas and Bolivar” take between 7 and 15 years.

The actual time of course varies with each different model within the brand, and with the personal preferences of each individual.

The second maturation is the period when the degrading “tannins” within the cigar allows for a higher level of aroma and taste. “Tannins” are astringent, bitter plant Polyphenols that either bind and precipitate or shrink proteins and various other organic compounds. The astringency from the tannins is what causes the dry and puckery feeling in the mouth following the consumption of a un ripened fruit or red wine.Most mild cigars do not need to be put through the second maturation, usually the medium to full bodied cigars with high tannic features need the extra fermenting period to allow for the tannins to be broken down to more simple molecules. When the tannins break down in to more simple molecules it results in a chemical reaction which releases a “woody sweetness” (actual wood sugars) formed by the degradation of the tannin. An average time that’s required for most of the tannic features to disappear from a cigar is between 15 – 25 years. A cigar successfully aged past the second maturation will be very smooth, extremely mellow, complex, classy and elegant. This can be compared similarly to a 20 year or 25 year old Scotch whisky.

The third and last maturation period is the one during which there is an accumulation of finesse. This is generated by the chemical reaction between the congeners within the cigar. The chemical reaction behind this kind of aging might be similar to the mysterious “wine in a bottle” maturing process. It’s also noteworthy to know that it takes 20 years for such finesse to be seen within a Cuban cigar. Unfortunately the knowledge on third maturity time in a cigar is almost non-existent.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Fuzz
Link removed, text inserted from website

[Colt45]

Seems that it's a pretty subjective area of discussion, but what I'm wondering about is are there any areas of broad agreement here?

Like for example, are there any 'rule of thumb' type observations that can be made (and yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule) but would it be possible to say that, "Generally speaking, cigars that are full strength age better"? or, if there are any general observations about aging, what might they be?

There are many aspects to consider - at this point, my thoughts are simply conversational. My first thought is that cigars can be fairly inconsistent. Fuzz brought up wine - for me well made wines are more predictable while cigars are far more unreliable.

That said, I feel that if a cigar shows some kind of body, or structure, or something, that it might have the ability to change over time. "Better" can be highly subjective, and for the most part, I've given up on trying to predict what might happen.

Many have said recent production has been far more approachable early on than cigars of the past - how might this affect long term potential. Are cigars blended with any kind of aging in mind.

Again, really just thinking out loud......

On a side note, providing links to merchants is usually considered poor form.....

[Ginseng]

...are there any areas of broad agreement here?

That is the rub. It seems that science, reason, and subjectivity are fated to clash in this debate. Too many believe too differently and value too contradictorilly to even approach concensus.

Wilkey