Freezing in Cuba

[PigFish]

Mastercases are simply cardboard boxes with boxes of cigars inside right? Are the mastercases sealed in plastic at all?

It seems strange how we all go through trouble double bagging, ducking air out with straws etc etc for Cuba to just throw the cigars into a freezer unsealed.

Are we being overly cautious, or is it simply not needed, or are the mastercases sealed up prior to being wheeled into the freezer?

You are a retail customer that respects and cherishes the cigars that you have exchanged your hard currency for.

Tabacuba is manufacturer of cigars that would likely discontinue the practice if it affected the color of the boxes or curled up the bands… Beetles you will take note of, they get away with selling lousy cigars all the time and few raise a stink! It is a matter of priorities!

Jeremy wrote some about damage to organic material. That would be the intention, to damage the beetle egg or the larva. There should be no liquid water left in a "degassed" cigar at this stage and therefore there is little risk from the expansion of frozen water inside the leaf damaging it… The condensation issue obviously has not proven to be a problem for them as the cigars are likely moved back to room or warehouse temps and that water is pretty quickly adsorbed into the air in the boxes and then back into the cigars.

My guess is, if a bunch of cigars needs to be shipped and a freezer is broken, they just get shipped. Afters smoking CCs for a many years now, I don't really believe that they are very careful with anything, cigar wise over there on Isla Cuba! The cigar smoking public, cuts them way too much slack and they know it… All you need to do is look at a lousy roll or a crappy wrapper on a $15 dollar cigar and it proves my point…!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Diamondog]

I have frozen quite a few cigars over the years in zip lock bags, boxes, cabs etc....only stuff that I have bought in Cuba or custom rolls. I used to go through the process of putting them in a bag, getting the air out, putting them in the fridge for a day, then in the freezer for a few days, then out of freezer and back in the fridge for a day, now I simply bag any loose cigars in ziplocks, box/cabs go straight in no ziplocks, in to the freezer (no fridge first) for a few days then out to the counter, ziplock open to allow moisture to escape then in to storage, I've done this process enough that I'm comfortable there is no damage nor issues from doing so. My freezer sits at -4F which is -20C which I believe is a pretty standard temperature for a fridge freezer to be at.

[CaptainQuintero]

Jeremy wrote some about damage to organic material. That would be the intention, to damage the beetle egg or the larva. There should be no liquid water left in a "degassed" cigar at this stage and therefore there is little risk from the expansion of frozen water inside the leaf damaging it… The condensation issue obviously has not proven to be a problem for them as the cigars are likely moved back to room or warehouse temps and that water is pretty quickly adsorbed into the air in the boxes and then back into the cigars.

My guess is, if a bunch of cigars needs to be shipped and a freezer is broken, they just get shipped. Afters smoking CCs for a many years now, I don't really believe that they are very careful with anything, cigar wise over there on Isla Cuba! The cigar smoking public, cuts them way too much slack and they know it… All you need to do is look at a lousy roll or a crappy wrapper on a $15 dollar cigar and it proves my point…!

Cheers! -Piggy

If you do, or would, how would you prepare hot cigars for freezing?

It seems we are told to zip lock cigars to protect the cigars from A - wrapper damage and B - to stop drying a cigar out of it's oils.

If Cuba isn't doing this do they have a reason? Id guess if boxes were arriving at distributors with burst wrappers or with dusty/dried out cigars there would be lots of need on it. Unless the cigars are dried up during the freezing, rehumidified and we're smoking moist cigars devoid of oils?

You'd think that the 3 or 4 day freezing is a major change to the cigars, either were doing unnecessary steps, or Cuba is seriously mishandling their product (But wouldn't consumers notice?) or is freezing actually a lot more forgiving than widely believed?

I need a cigar to contemplate on this

[Diamondog]

Cigars are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for.

[PigFish]

If you do, or would, how would you prepare hot cigars for freezing?

It seems we are told to zip lock cigars to protect the cigars from A - wrapper damage and B - to stop drying a cigar out of it's oils.

If Cuba isn't doing this do they have a reason? Id guess if boxes were arriving at distributors with burst wrappers or with dusty/dried out cigars there would be lots of need on it. Unless the cigars are dried up during the freezing, rehumidified and we're smoking moist cigars devoid of oils?

You'd think that the 3 or 4 day freezing is a major change to the cigars, either were doing unnecessary steps, or Cuba is seriously mishandling their product (But wouldn't consumers notice?) or is freezing actually a lot more forgiving than widely believed?

I need a cigar to contemplate on this

I think you are making assumptions that are incorrect here, and that is leading your confusion.

One problem with freezing is a problem with water suspended in space. That water will have to go somewhere. It will condense first and crystalize somewhere usually on the first cold spot, lets say the box! That is the only problem I see here!

Water in the cigar is in a molecular form, bonded to pathways in the tobacco. It is not liquid water.

Now you are thinking that a freezer, cold space is dry! Am I right? Yes, it is dry because the concentration of water in space is dependent on temperature. Raising the temperature (of water), the more water you can suspend in the space. This has to do with the energy of water and its relationship to itself in two states, liquid and gas.

Now forget about that for a minute and think about tobacco as a hygroscopic material. It bonds to water. The relationship, given a certain temp, and how much of it will bond (water to tobacco for instance) will be reflected empirically via a representation we call an isotherm.

Tobacco therefore competes with space for water. Each hygroscopic element is different and the levels of competition are different. A 'competitive level' should be viewed as to the percentage moisture content achieved for levels of heat and water saturation.

So what happens when we freeze a cigar. Well, the water does not want to exist in space so it condenses on the first cold substance that reaches the dew point. Water wants to be liquid water in colder temperatures, bonded to itself OR BONDED TO ANOTHER SUBSTANCE. Okay, we talked about that. So we know that the space does not want the water (water as a gas)… but how about the tobacco? You are assuming that the tobacco acts like water in space but it does not. The tobacco likes the cold water, just like liquid water likes the cold water (vapor)! Since the space does not want it, the tobacco will take it as will the drops that form up, up to the point that the water condenses and freezes.

Freezing therefore does not make cigars dry… This is a misconception. Cooling cigars, makes them wetter, not dryer… My guess is that cigars out of the deep freeze come out somewhat wetter than they went in!

Once you pull the cigars out of the freeze, the space around them being quite dry, looks for free water to bring the space into equilibrium at any given temperature. Neglecting the effects of hysteresis, the water in space simply moves from liquid or a gas state from the cigars and boxes back to the space.

There is no problem!

A continuous cycling, where new water is brought into the system is a problem but that does not exist here. This is why I tell people not to chill their cigars. Cigars should not be cooled (MHO). Not cooled for the sake of making them cold… I keep them cooler than ambient, only if the ambient is too high. Furthermore I will heat the humidor if it gets too cool. Too cool means, more water into the cigars from the cooling space. This defines a desire to control temperature for the sake of stability and not fad.

This cycle of opening and closing a chilled humidor door and chilled boxes of cigars, brings warm humid air into the boxes and deposits the free water from the space onto the cigars, boxes and inners of the humidor… This is how mold starts. It is how you end up with wet cigars.

Different topic… Hope that helps mate.

I typed this rather fast so forgive the grammar flaws… I wanted to get it out before venturing back to the shop!! -Ray

[Ryan]

I have never seen it nor had a reason to go.

Jose Candia got the details for us back in 2008 when he worked in HSA. It has been posted previously on FOH.

Nino has also posted previously on FOH where he has been and taken photo's of it. I know James has been and no doubt others who have had the necessary invite and clearance.

When I go to Havana it is for a short time and I don't seek out freezers unless they are chilling beer

Well that settles that. Thanks for the info.

[PapaDisco]

Here's one of Nino's pics of the freezing warehouse. The rest are on the thread "Beetle Question" on Page 2: http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117249&hl=beetle

[El Presidente]

PD

You made a great post then that should be repeated

_____________________________________________________________________________________

A popular paper (seems to be quoted frequently around the cigar web) on this topic is one done by the Leaf Tobacco Research Center in Japan. Their table for freeze temps and times I've quoted below. I did measure my home freezer temp and it is -18C. You'll read posts about home freezers being inadequate and not getting down low enough, but -18C is plenty low.

I went back and checked my notes and the box in question arrived from Germany at Christmas time so I've only had it for 4 weeks (less than I thought), implying that the bug was already hatched and larval when it got here. I smoked another PSD4 from this pack just 10 days ago and recall it getting a very lumpy bubble in the final third as the stick burned. Maybe a kindred beetle going up in smoke! Or maybe just bad construction . . . I do recall an unusual, "meaty" flavor to that stick . . .

Here's the temp/time list. As you can see, at -18C all stages of the bug are killed off in less than 4-5 hours. Of course your whole box has to get down to that temp, so it's not just time in the freezer that counts, it's time at that temperature.

Egg

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 4 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 12 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 48 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 240 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 336 hr


Larval

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 3 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 12 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 96 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 336 hr

Acclimated Larval (acclimated at 15 Celsius for 3 months to determine acclimation impact if any)

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 6 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 24 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 504 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1176 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1680 hr

Pupal

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 4 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 48 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 840 hr


Adult

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 2 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 2 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 72 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 840 hr

The whole paper can be found here: http://www.cubanciga...cigar-pests.pdf

• Like This

• Quote
• MultiQuote
• Delete
• Hide
• Edit

[...]

Here's one of Nino's pics of the freezing warehouse. The rest are on the thread "Beetle Question" on Page 2: http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117249&hl=beetle

Thank you for the link, great read. These beetles are always a worrying sight and proper curating of one's cigar stash is so important. These buggers can eat through your investment if they go unnoticed while you believe your cigars are simply aging for later enjoyment

[CaptainQuintero]

I think you are making assumptions that are incorrect here, and that is leading your confusion.

One problem with freezing is a problem with water suspended in space. That water will have to go somewhere. It will condense first and crystalize somewhere usually on the first cold spot, lets say the box! That is the only problem I see here!

Water in the cigar is in a molecular form, bonded to pathways in the tobacco. It is not liquid water.

Now you are thinking that a freezer, cold space is dry! Am I right? Yes, it is dry because the concentration of water in space is dependent on temperature. Raising the temperature (of water), the more water you can suspend in the space. This has to do with the energy of water and its relationship to itself in two states, liquid and gas.

Now forget about that for a minute and think about tobacco as a hygroscopic material. It bonds to water. The relationship, given a certain temp, and how much of it will bond (water to tobacco for instance) will be reflected empirically via a representation we call an isotherm.

Tobacco therefore competes with space for water. Each hygroscopic element is different and the levels of competition are different. A 'competitive level' should be viewed as to the percentage moisture content achieved for levels of heat and water saturation.

So what happens when we freeze a cigar. Well, the water does not want to exist in space so it condenses on the first cold substance that reaches the dew point. Water wants to be liquid water in colder temperatures, bonded to itself OR BONDED TO ANOTHER SUBSTANCE. Okay, we talked about that. So we know that the space does not want the water (water as a gas)… but how about the tobacco? You are assuming that the tobacco acts like water in space but it does not. The tobacco likes the cold water, just like liquid water likes the cold water (vapor)! Since the space does not want it, the tobacco will take it as will the drops that form up, up to the point that the water condenses and freezes.

Freezing therefore does not make cigars dry… This is a misconception. Cooling cigars, makes them wetter, not dryer… My guess is that cigars out of the deep freeze come out somewhat wetter than they went in!

Once you pull the cigars out of the freeze, the space around them being quite dry, looks for free water to bring the space into equilibrium at any given temperature. Neglecting the effects of hysteresis, the water in space simply moves from liquid or a gas state from the cigars and boxes back to the space.

There is no problem!

A continuous cycling, where new water is brought into the system is a problem but that does not exist here. This is why I tell people not to chill their cigars. Cigars should not be cooled (MHO). Not cooled for the sake of making them cold… I keep them cooler than ambient, only if the ambient is too high. Furthermore I will heat the humidor if it gets too cool. Too cool means, more water into the cigars from the cooling space. This defines a desire to control temperature for the sake of stability and not fad.

This cycle of opening and closing a chilled humidor door and chilled boxes of cigars, brings warm humid air into the boxes and deposits the free water from the space onto the cigars, boxes and inners of the humidor… This is how mold starts. It is how you end up with wet cigars.

Different topic… Hope that helps mate.

I typed this rather fast so forgive the grammar flaws… I wanted to get it out before venturing back to the shop!! -Ray

That makes sense!

I'm guessing then that really, ziplocking is only really ensuring to a point that the same air, water vapour, possible oils? That are present inside the ziplock at time of sealing, stay inside the ziplock (and its contents) until the contents have defrosted, returned to room temperature and achieved some kind of homeostasis, or at the very least a similar state to pre-freezing? A protection not against the cigars loosing anything but against absorbing extra vapour from a continuous opening and closing of the freezer, or even addition of say a nice piece of fish, into the freezer which would if close enough cause condensation on the cigars/box.

Thanks for th feedback by the way!

[Habana Mike]

So with those metrics and a freezer that runs 0 to -6F (-15 to -20C) I guess don't even need to freeze a box for a day!

I think I'll still go at least overnight to be sure....