Scottish Independence - How would you vote?

[Zigatoh]

I love the coercion argument, early 1700s was it, read one thing read another, two different opinions, pick the one that suits your needs

Though as I have done on another forum thread about the same thing, apologies on behalg all the english people to the scottish for what may or may not have happened some 300 odd years ago

[Pixa]

Interesting. What do you think a "state" is? Why is country sometimes also referred to as a nation-state? Why does the US (and other nations) have a State Department? Why are leaders of a country referred to as heads-of-state?

Head of state of UK is david cameron who is also classed as the head of state of Scotland as well. Scotland is not as you refer to a state in your definition (though I am sure rye was meaning more in the american state way) would be the nation state of the Uk. The independence is about Scotland becoming a nation state with its own head of state. Hope that clears it up for you

[Pixa]

Well, now I know a tidbit more about it. Like I said

I don't know enough to cast a vote!

Dont worry neither do most people in the UK

[Maplepie]

Dont worry neither do most people in the UK

outstanding emoticon choice!

[Jeremy Festa]

I would vote to put back Hadrian's wall!

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[Maplepie]

I would vote to put back Hadrian's wall!

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Nah nah.

Let the annexation of South Ireland commence!

[Zigatoh]

States, countries, counties, streets, post codes, regions, areas, all just lines on a map.

I wouldn't mind independence, the tax haven of my house on my street, where I get what I vote for in a democracy of 1

[ptrthgr8]

Head of state of UK is david cameron who is also classed as the head of state of Scotland as well. Scotland is not as you refer to a state in your definition (though I am sure rye was meaning more in the american state way) would be the nation state of the Uk. The independence is about Scotland becoming a nation state with its own head of state. Hope that clears it up for you

No, I understand. My point was that - here in the US at least - too many people think the word "state" is synonymous with "political entity which is subservient to the centralized national gov't." In a true federalist system such as that by which these United States were... well... united... the States retained their sovereignty and only ceded some of their authority to the federal gov't. (And then Lincoln came along and ended federalism for good.)

So, my point - again, from a US perspective - was that the people of the American States back in the day thought of their States as being their country. For example, a Virginian was a Virginian, not an "American." A New Yorker was a New Yorker, not an "American." A Pennsylvanian was a Pennsylvanian, not an "American."

I certainly don't know for a fact, but if this Scottish independence thing is going to a vote, I suspect that many Scots consider themselves to be Scots, not "UKers" or "British" or whatever.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[ptrthgr8]

States, countries, counties, streets, post codes, regions, areas, all just lines on a map.

I think I'd have to kindly disagree with you a bit here. Sure, there are lines on a map to delineate property and political units and whatnot, but I think a large part of being a country/state/county is also the shared common cause, history, shared experiences, etc. Call it "community" or whatever you want, but it's certainly more meaningful than a line on a map somewhere.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[Maplepie]

I think I'd have to kindly disagree with you a bit here. Sure, there are lines on a map to delineate property and political units and whatnot, but I think a large part of being a country/state/county is also the shared common cause, history, shared experiences, etc. Call it "community" or whatever you want, but it's certainly more meaningful than a line on a map somewhere.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

x2.

except in certain circumstances like the majority of Afrika or the current situation dividing the middle east. Also in the Netherlands and Belgium with certain houses being in both Holland and Belgium

[ptrthgr8]

x2.

except in certain circumstances like the majority of Afrika or the current situation dividing the middle east. Also in the Netherlands and Belgium with certain houses being in both Holland and Belgium

Well, I think in a lot of those circumstances (and I know I'm over-simplifying things when I say this) it's a matter of groups not sharing common cause. I.e. just because a group of Westerners got together after some war, drew a bunch of lines on a map, and then expected all the people in those areas to get along doesn't mean they would.

Probably doesn't explain those houses that are in Holland and Belgium at the same time. I'll blame that one a few too many Heinekens and/or Stellas.

[Maplepie]

Well, I think in a lot of those circumstances (and I know I'm over-simplifying things when I say this) it's a matter of groups not sharing common cause. I.e. just because a group of Westerners got together after some war, drew a bunch of lines on a map, and then expected all the people in those areas to get along doesn't mean they would.

Probably doesn't explain those houses that are in Holland and Belgium at the same time. I'll blame that one a few too many Heinekens and/or Stellas.

we agree on the same thing, Greg. I probably would say the same thing you're saying given the opportunity in a face-face conversation.

well... except for the heineken/stella thing.

there are much better beers available there!!

[Zigatoh]

Makes it a difficult definition then, at what point do lines on a map become something else?

[ptrthgr8]

Makes it a difficult definition then, at what point do lines on a map become something else?

Difficult to answer, I suppose. But I imagine it involves politicians.

[Pixa]

Makes it a difficult definition then, at what point do lines on a map become something else?

When they are something else when some where has been a sovereign nation by itself for longer than it has been a union then surely they retain the right to dissolve that union when the populace see fit. No? Also the fact that Scottish, welsh and English are recognised as nationality's with defined borders should make this easier as your street/county/city does not really meet this criteria does is?

[backslide]

If the want to be free let em have it! Good or bad freedom > all

[Zigatoh]

When they are something else when some where has been a sovereign nation by itself for longer than it has been a union then surely they retain the right to dissolve that union when the populace see fit. No? Also the fact that Scottish, welsh and English are recognised as nationality's with defined borders should make this easier as your street/county/city does not really meet this criteria does is?

But the US states aren't recognised as nationalities so they don't count?

And you appear to be applying a definition of worthwhile area for independence that fits your cause, not surprising eh?

[ayepatz]

well... except for the heineken/stella thing.

there are much better beers available there!!

Indeed there are... I'm in Brushelsh now assha madder of facc......(hic!)

[El Presidente]

I trust our Scottish mates are smart enough to work it out for themselves!

Democracy in action. Words, print, reasoned arguments for and against, a vote. It is a beautiful thing.

[SCgarman]

The only thing I know about Scotland is that they make great whisky there!

[ogus]

[DrunkenMonkey]

Will independence have an effect on the price of whisky?

[Philski]

I trust our Scottish mates are smart enough to work it out for themselves!

Democracy in action. Words, print, reasoned arguments for and against, a vote. It is a beautiful thing.

With respect, I'm not entirely sure that's true. There is a powerful war of words being waged on both sides, and I find it hard to escape the feeling that Salmond is quite an operator who is willing to lead Scotland into a dangerous place, at nearly any cost, in a grab for power.

I have personal and completely selfish reasons for hoping for a Yes vote, though.

[Pixa]

But the US states aren't recognised as nationalities so they don't count?

And you appear to be applying a definition of worthwhile area for independence that fits your cause, not surprising eh?

Feel free to try and set your house up as a separate country just dont be surprised if people start to look at you funny and cross the street. American politics are not allowed so going to give my opinion of that a wide berth as I am sure it would send this thread somewhere in the opposite direction.

[Smallclub]

Will independence have an effect on the price of whisky?

I'm glad someone finally asks the right question, the one that really counts!