The Grand Collusion… a position on relevant and irrelevant topics!

[PigFish]

I originally wrote this for a thread on the embargo. I am not going to edit all that out, but in the event that this thread gets whacked or closed, I figured it would be better it be on its own and not bring down the thread of another member.

Let the melee commence!

…as I stated, the opening comments are regarding questions about the embargo!

From a slightly different angle…

Not all US Americans like CC's. The draw is too stiff for them and they don't have that tin can, metallic twang that they appear to love. I am not putting down, NC cigars, I just don't like them. Having shared CC's with many American smokers, many have been unimpressed with the nuance that they could apparently no longer taste. There are Coke and Pepsi followers… and for those that distinguish the two, they are not alike…

You guys hear of the gray market? Well every US buyer knows it like it or not. You think that would stop? You see, like it or not, every legit CC delivered into the US is sent by a 'gray market' supplier. This is not a jab at any of the places you buy your cigars but you must understand that if you are buying cigars from 'illegitimate' sources, MEANING ILLEGITIMATE TO YOUR GOVERNMENTS TAX POLICY, YOU ARE BUYING CIGARS IN THE GRAY OR BLACK MARKETS. PLEASE, bear in mind I am not taking about legitimacy of the the provenence of the product, I am talking the legitimacy of the market supplier from the perspective of the "OFFICIAL." Legitimate therefore is not the issue, but legitimate to whom is the issue?

Just to get this straight, if you are buying cigars around your government's taxation system, or 'other' laws, therefore from 'illegitimate' sources, you are buying gray market or black market. Do you think that is going to stop? No way!

I think what people are not realizing here, is that the cigar business is largely going gray market because host countries for these businesses are killing their local business men (and women) by politicizing the cigar business (and others) and simply driving that trade offshore.

So it is not really the evil business man that moves offshore because he is greedy. He often moves offshore because he wants to stay in business. It may be that the brick and mortar fails, that is the goal of PC driven 'lefty' legislation to control "behavior." People still want their products so they take some risk and go elsewhere. Is this not what many of us do?

As each of our countries finds this popular tax stream of taxing sin, typically as justification to support medical welfare programs, we will all begin a move to bring in our cigar illegally and simply support businesses of countries other than our own. You might find that the US mail orders, if allowed, will simply be shipping cigars to Canada, or Australia…! This is government master planning at its finest!

I know that we recently came off a rather exhausting 'gun' thread. Hopefully some of the gun haters have taken a few Xanax and fresh off the couch they read through the article without exploding. I have posted it so that some, not so intrenched in ideological hate, can get an understanding of how they and others are manipulated by ideological 'hate groups' as a tool to forward their larger political agendas. That these topics and positions are neither random nor separate. While many of you might believe they are, they are not. Our governmental enemies that are killing our smoking rights are killing the rights of other business that 'they' deem inappropriate. Some of these movements can pick up a little civil libertarian push by legalizing things like MJ, but they are only in it for the money… The tax revenue. Once established, these same groups will be bashing the trade, trying to tax the hell out of it and control it. It is only a matter of time. These apparent libertarian pushes only last until the long arm of the tax man gets his hooks into that trade as well. The taxation begins with a campaign of 'hate' against the group. The public hate, pushes the tax man to do his job. We come full circle.

The main question should be whether there will still be tobacco stores when the two countries settle their differences? Cuba, since it officially also takes a leftist anti-smoking stance and the US may look very different by the time this happens, if it does. With most of our governments looking to put tobacco out of business, the matter of embargo begins to look less important, at least to me.

My point basically, is that there exists a political ideology that primarily backs these "anti-this and anti-that," for your health and welfare positions. Some of you are sympathetic to their position on other topics. Yes topics change and with them so do opinions. Many will find out that the people that they supported on one day, due to one topic, are the same folks that are not attempting to put you out of business the next day because you have become their next target.

Doug here is a political pundit, gun lover and cigar smoker. He owns a cigar company.

For those of you on the left that hate guns yet love cigars, you might take note that to your leftist peers, you are as bad as gun owners…! You are not separate nor different. You are the same to them! You are targeted for extinction just like the rest of us! And when you consider how vile and hateful you are of gun owners, well, you can see how you are thought of as a cigar smoker by your own peers.

Cheers. -Piggy

OPERATION CHOKE POINT: Why Gun And Cigar Lovers Should Detest The Left

Written by Doug Giles on August 10, 2014

In the last couple of weeks my cigar company has had hell trying to find a credit card processing company that’ll do recurring revenue charges for my customers who’d like to get an automated, monthly dose of one of the finest cigars on this planet, our Safari Cigar.

As my team and I were going back and forth trying to find a company to handle our transactions, I started redlining, getting a wee bit pissed, about how ridiculous it has become to do trade.

My business boys tried to calm me down by telling me it was normative now for banks to crap on our enterprise, given that cigars have been deemed a “high risk” business. Their explanation and well-meaning solace made me even more annoyed, causing me to yell, “What is this, Russia?” And then I said, “No … it can’t be Russia because Russia wouldn’t do stupid, PC junk like this.”

Fast forward to this past Wednesday when my publicist called me and said Newsmax TV wanted me on to talk about “Operation Choke Point” with JD Hayworth and Miranda Khan on their show, America’s Forum.

Having a new book to plug, of course I said, “Yes” even though, and I hate to admit it, I had no clue what Operation Choke Point (OCP) was. I thought it was some kind of organized rescue effort to try to save Rosie O’Donnell if she ever started gagging on nachos again during a lesbian cruise to Nassau. So, I googled OCP and, low and behold, did I find a little treasure trove of backdoor control that has come to characterize BHO and his boys’ modus operandi for the last six years.

Essentially, Operation Choke Point, launched in 2013 in partnership with the DOJ, is a program that makes a financial institution’s life a living hell, with insane audits and investigations, if they provide services to clients who are a part of an “offensive industry” that is rife with “fraudulent activities.”

Sounds good and noble on the surface, eh?

So, I started to dig a around a bit to see what they deem “offensive” because it’s always interesting in Obamaland to see what they brand as bellicose.

Offensive businesses, according to OCP, are porn sites and prostitution. Also, included were online gaming, Ponzi schemes, payday loans, bogus MLM sites, and check cashing stores.

Okay, I can see how those are gross, some illegal, but I really don’t know that they demand an “Operation” to quell them.

Continuing on, I started running into offensive things like fireworks, as in firecrackers. And I’m like … huh? Fireworks? Really?

And then it started getting really good, as I saw in my ham-fisted online research that OCP also targets banks that work with online gun and ammo sales and tobacco.

Yahtzee.

There it was … buried deep in the dastardly heap of porn, pirate hookers and bottle rockets are the nefarious, oh-so-offensive, guns and cigars. It took awhile, but I found ‘em.

Lets see: firearms and cigars are a “high risk” and an “offensive industry?” To whom? Mary Poppins? Not to the millions that own and use both.

Also, someone help me here, since when did gun and ammo sales become fraud laden? That industry is more regulated than Bill is when Hillary’s in town and in one of her “moods”; and yet, the DOJ is going to lump them in with porn and Ponzi schemes and threaten banks with unannounced audits? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

According to Alden Abbott of Heritage.org- “The National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for firearms and ammunitions manufacturers, said that several of its members have had banking relationships wrongfully terminated as a result of Operation Choke Point. The group argues the federal government is discriminating against businesses simply because they are engaged in the lawful commerce of firearms.”

And cigars? Cigars? Cigar companies are “filled with such widespread deception” that they demand being squeezed out of existence with a special-op via the DOJ? I bet George Burns, JFK and Winston Churchill are spinning in their respective graves so fast they could light up all of Vegas. Pardon me, but my BS detector is pinging on that claim.

Here’s what it boils down to with me and my little cigar company, my love of guns and this thing called freedom: Obama and his ilk’s freakish control fetishes have failed so miserably in the last few years that they have resorted to bullying banks to punish people they’ve deemed enemies and make it impossible for legitimate businesses to operate. That’s what you call a “fundamental transformation” of America. I don’t know how a gun owner or a cigar lover can still support such liberty-abusing louts like Obama and his clowns.

For more on Operation Choke Point go to: StopTheChoke.com

BTW, we don’t have the recurring rev feature up and running yet, but you may still purchase our amazing smokes online via SafariCigar.com.

[helix]

Well articulated Gents. Could not agree more.

[...]

Quite interesting. Thanks for posting the article Ray!

[Maplepie]

Piggy DeYoung

Welcome to the Grand Illusion!

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Skyfall]

[dogdays]

I live in the USA, and I love Cuban cigars , and I would agree with you about NC'S.

[ptrthgr8]

I agree with most of that, Ray. I think, though, the Obama-centric focus is giving O too much credit. I'd say the Fun Police are far greater in scope than just Barry O.

And I'll leave it at that. I've had my fun for the week.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[Smallclub]

The idea that opponents to tobacco and guns are "leftists" is simply wrong.

I don't predict a long life to this thread.

[PigFish]

I agree with most of that, Ray. I think, though, the Obama-centric focus is giving O too much credit. I'd say the Fun Police are far greater in scope than just Barry O.

And I'll leave it at that. I've had my fun for the week.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

I did not write the quoted article Greg. You and I probably agree that political groups that focus on control rather than freedom, often use a strategy of agitating independent hate groups and codify those groups to move a "larger" political agenda.

Probably at my own peril, I commend you for representing "my opinion also" on a recent thread. I am stupid too! These days, if I cannot articulate what I want to say with sufficient detail, I tend to stay out of the topic.

Cheers, Ray

[Habana Mike]

Beyond all the left/right political BS and smoke cover it is frightening to me that DOJ is forcing banks to cut off banking services to legitimate businesses based on whose(?) determination a legal business 'may' be involved in fraudulent activities.

What next?

[tjohn7]

People that want to acquire things that the government deems "illicit" will always find a way to acquire said things. Even if CCs are legalized here in the US, if a consumer deems the price at a B&M is too high and goes online to find the same smoke is 30% cheaper, "illegal/non-taxed" consumption will continue.

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. I'm not afraid.

Tom

[Maplepie]

The idea that opponents to tobacco and guns are "leftists" is simply wrong.

X2.

There's a huge difference between leftists and liberals. The problem is conflating the two on top of the fact that one of the biggest leftists in the worlds smoke.

Remember when Stalin bred a whole generation of young pipe smokers as they tried to imitate him to avoid being purged by the NKVD?

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[PigFish]

Sometimes I find myself generalizing. Generalization is an important tool. In many ways it goes agains core principles of mine about individuals and individualism. I don't mean to pigeon hole any of you or categorize you. I am free to categorize myself. You are certainly free to categorize me as well. It does work both ways.

If you look at many of these threads, you will see players on both teams. Yes, we are individuals but generally you will see trends of folks who appear to align themselves for or against certain comments or other members. This does not make us as group, good or bad, right or wrong, although in our own minds we may feel that way…! It makes us different. We may align, but we are still individuals.

In a grand scope of 'alignments' as I see them, when I consider a trend of many comments over many years, I percieve people whom I consider (generally) left or right. This does not mean that I am correct in my assessment, it is just an assessment. Furthermore, it does not mean that I must hate, ignore, or disrespect those that I have judged 'align' differently than I do. To the contrary actually. I look hard to find common grounds with these folks. Cigars are our common ground and I look to strengthen that bond when I can. I am categorized here all the time. I expect it. I am forthright and opinionated. I am open about it.

I am not a "core" hater of anyone! I am a live and let live individual. With the possible exception of those that are known criminals and those that demonstrate habitual poor judgement and dishonesty, I accept just about anyone! This is what it means to be an individualist… I find it also to be a core principle of conservatism, but that is surely debateable.

To be certain I understand that the survival of my way of life is a struggle for the influence of minds. I will never change the minds of everyone, nor do I wish to. However, if I can write and appeal to the logic of some strangers, to see what I see, then in my mind I have forwarded my cause. In this case, my cause is a right to smoke freely without undue influence from my government.

Look though threads and posts and see who aligns with whom! Like it or not, topic to topic, one can make an assessment of the trends of comments and likes by individuals and with that assessment, make an observation if that member is representative of the right, or the left of center. We therefore categorize ourselves with comments and likes. I am not making or declaring the cliques… You are yourself when you like and dislike comments. You will note please, that I said comments, and not members!

It is pretty clear where I stand… I am not sensitive about it as long as I am not compared to a communist… -LOL

So if I have apparently lumped you in the wrong camp, have no fear, I am not the last word on that. You are!

I have said it before. We are what we represent ourselves to be, good or bad, right or wrong, left or right, by what we write and what we comment on. One is certainly free (here) to declare their position and that is the point of forum life.

While the thread may go the way of defining the infinite details of political subgroups, that was not my point. I was after looking at the larger picture. The larger picture indicates which groups are primarily for or against individual liberty, more specifically smoking. Smoking, is an individual liberty and certainly a private property issue. For those interested in hunting, fishing, drinking, smoking dope, shooting guns, having abortions, these too are individual liberty topics… Some of them correlate. This thread is about looking at some of the correlations!

-Piggy

[cigcars]

You mentioned, Ray, the skirting of our civic duty in buying "some" cigars under wraps or under cover so to speak. I can't help but wonder if you might recall how our own Congressional and Senatorial "leaders" are not only known for having their own private "stash" of Habanos in their possession, there was also a known incident - at least that made the news albeit in hushed tones - where these U.S. government officials in taking a trip to Cuba (this was around 1996 or so) had the embargo law temporarily suspended so they could bring back more than the $100 limit in cigars. And when they arrived back home it was back to usual for everybody else in the States. From the beginning that had been my prime sense of being "irked" - that we regular Americans can't be allowed (out in the open) enjoy what senators, politicians, and celebrities take for granted. Being able to have their pictures taken and put on the front cover of celebrity and cigar magazines - AND INSIDE THE STATES- with Cuban cigars in full view, and NEVER having to worry about being "jacked up" about it. One of our right-wing A.M. radio talk show hosts talked about driving back to the States from Canada - and with his car trunk full of Habanos. He was stopped by U.S. Customs who saw his smokes in full view. Never asked for any authorization to have them (which of course he didn't have), didn't ask him ANY questions. He just saw them and said, "Oh...okay!" and let him continue on about his merry way. And our talk show "mouth of the South" was telling this story in some wonder about HIS not being stopped or anything about having items in clear violation of the embargo. I do not tell this story, myself, in anger or outrage, whatsoever. I'm actually very happy for him. Just as I'd be very happy for anybody else to be able to enjoy a highly prized consumable item without being hassled. This law is only selectively enforced, it seems.

[PigFish]

Well since I'm "free" to declare my position here, for the record, I consider myself more of a leaner to the right of centre politically.

Having said that, when it comes to guns, I'd be happy to see them all gone tomorrow. (will never happen I know). Does this default me to lefty commie status? I don't think so. And just because I'm no fan of guns doesn't mean I hate gun owners. I have family and friends that own guns and I can assure you I don't hate them.

If people think that the right to bear arms is going to protect them from the government they are sadly mistaken. Our governments have been eroding our rights year after year, slowly but surely, and the guns aren't protecting anyone from that.

Anyway I'm pretty sure that weapons manufacturers and the gun lobby in general have a tight enough grip on the government's puppet strings so that guns are going nowhere soon. To me the gun debate is just another one of those "divide and conquer" issues to keep us distracted while the government screws us from other angles.

This brings up something interesting...

Are there right of center and left of center issues in your opinion? Is the campaign against smoking, anti-smoking, a right or left of center driven issue? Meaning, those that push this issue politically, pushing anti-smoking, are those that push for the government bans, banning though taxation, are they generally left or right, or do you see no difference?

I am not attempting to box you into anything. I am asking a straight forward question and your opinion. I know that some see no association in political policy. I am wondering where you stand on anti-smoking policy and who you think drives it. If you think it is not political, I want to know that as well.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

-R

[PigFish]

You mentioned, Ray, the skirting of our civic duty in buying "some" cigars under wraps or under cover so to speak. I can't help but wonder if you might recall how our own Congressional and Senatorial "leaders" are not only known for having their own private "stash" of Habanos in their possession, there was also a known incident - at least that made the news albeit in hushed tones - where these U.S. government officials in taking a trip to Cuba (this was around 1996 or so) had the embargo law temporarily suspended so they could bring back more than the $100 limit in cigars. And when they arrived back home it was back to usual for everybody else in the States. From the beginning that had been my prime sense of being "irked" - that we regular Americans can't be allowed (out in the open) enjoy what senators, politicians, and celebrities take for granted. Being able to have their pictures taken and put on the front cover of celebrity and cigar magazines - AND INSIDE THE STATES- with Cuban cigars in full view, and NEVER having to worry about being "jacked up" about it. One of our right-wing A.M. radio talk show hosts talked about driving back to the States from Canada - and with his car trunk full of Habanos. He was stopped by U.S. Customs who saw his smokes in full view. Never asked for any authorization to have them (which of course he didn't have), didn't ask him ANY questions. He just saw them and said, "Oh...okay!" and let him continue on about his merry way. And our talk show "mouth of the South" was telling this story in some wonder about HIS not being stopped or anything about having items in clear violation of the embargo. I do not tell this story, myself, in anger or outrage, whatsoever. I'm actually very happy for him. Just as I'd be very happy for anybody else to be able to enjoy a highly prized consumable item without being hassled. This law is only selectively enforced, it seems.

I don't really know what you are getting at Janet. I think I will have to reread you more carefully when I back at my computer later and I will comment on that later if I have comments.

Janet, do you think that anti-smoking is politically driven? Again, I am just curious. Do you see the folks that are generally driving the bans on most things, cigars to coal mines, are these people driving a political agenda and if so are they right or left of center?

Thanks, Ray

[cigcars]

I don't really know what you are getting at Janet. I think I will have to reread you more carefully when I back at my computer later and I will comment on that later if I have comments.

Janet, do you think that anti-smoking is politically driven? Again, I am just curious. Do you see the folks that are generally driving the bans on most things, cigars to coal mines, are these people driving a political agenda and if so are they right or left of center?

Thanks, Ray

That wasn't what I was responding to. I know you brought up a lot concerning guns, anti-smoking lobbies, etc. As I specifically pointed out - I was responding to the portion of your comments about some citizens skirting or not contributing to laws and taxes concerning their purchases of a forbidden item. No, I wasn't responding to your whole statements. Not only would that take too long, and possibly risk becoming too contentious, I only wanted to address THAT portion of your comments - about buying a product and how did you put it - "Illegitimate to your government's tax policies" - when the very implementers of that policy, themselves, are in violation of that very policy, at least here and there. That was what I was driving at. And no - no left of center or any of that hinted at in my statements, either.

[ogus]

Does this mean any religious or political article is fair game if tobacco is involved?

[tommggeorge]

This forum is simply a pleasure to read. I take my hat off to you Piggy. Whether I agree or disagree with you, this is some of the most clear and insightful thinking Ive heard for a while. As it stands, I happen to be with you. If I interpret what you say free from my own personal agenda of course!

Governments as they currently stand, at least in major Western democracies are shamelessly using population 'protection' policies to manipulate tax revenues. Much as protection rackets in a mafia outfit use it to extort revenue too.

As for whether said governments should be more left, more right, more consevative, more liberal, more 'big government' or more 'small government' is, in my opinion, a moot point. Is a 100% 'communist' government big or small? Is everyone the government, or nobody? Is a 100% anarchist state big or small government? Again, is everyone the government or no-one? At the extremes they are the same. The issue is circular not linear.

The problem outlined above is fundamental and unresolvable. Give someone the right to own a gun and you give them the right to shoot someone. If they dont have that right, why give them the right to own it?

The nub (ha ha) of the issue I believe you are getting to though, is that personal freedoms should stand aside from all the above. Whether to pay tax, whether to have the right to shoot someone, whether the law should allow someone to keep another person as a slave, for example, are all issues that affect individuals OTHER THAN OURSELVES, and so there is a purpose in regulating them. When the issue under regulation becomes ones own body,

religion or sexuality - any regulation is almost by definition, political. It has become an issue not of government but of 'politics'. It has become regulation for the purpose of concentrating, exercising or establlishing power by the current system of government.

Such regulation is something imposed on the people, not 'for the people'.

And I hate it in all its forms.

[Maplepie]

Does this mean any religious or political article is fair game if tobacco is involved?

Good question!

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Smallclub]

Good question!

Excellent question!

[Lotusguy]

One way to get around the ban of discussion of US politics...

[helix]

Collusion..... secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

Personal Rights and Freedoms are hard earned and easily lost.

[MontrealRon]

A little story, to further confuse the issue of "left and right" ( as is my habit ) :

Around 15 years ago, my wife and I took our first trip to Cuba together,

She is a cigarette smoker.

As we got off the plane and headed directly into the airport,

waiting in line to go through passport control, she was dying for a smoke.

I approached a soldier, who was lounging about, looking bored, and asked

"Is there anywhere around here to have a smoke?"

His reply, "You are in Cuba now. This is a free country. Smoke where you like!"

Granted, times have changed since then,

and at the same time that Cuba began relaxing it's interpretation of Communism ( somewhat ),

PC anti-smoking nonsense started to be introduced, though rather haphazardly enforced.

So, anti-tobacco legislation is "leftist"?

The "left and right" question is a smokescreen. ( irony intended. )

As TOMMGGEORGE put it so well above, "the issue is circular, not linear".

And, it seems that just as Americans consider themselves to be free,

so do many, if not most Cubans..

Some emphasize "freedom to..."

others "freedom from..."

Perhaps each has a part of the answer...

[Maplepie]

The "left and right" question is a smokescreen. ( irony intended. )

with the concept of 'full circles', i will agree with this.

almost about everything, actually. making black and white (or every greyscale) truly complicates things and produces an us v. them mentality. with things like that, it's virtually impossible to reach accords.