mk05 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 ...I mean I hate to talk about something that I know nothing about, regarding something that no one knows exists and cannot be quantified, all in uncertain terms!!! These multiple threads are too hard for me to keep in track of. Are you saying that you have never personally witnessed plume? Independent of that answer, could you tell us your storage conditions and steps before that, ie primary provenance and when purchased, do you freeze, etc? 03 SLR A from a cab. Could you tell us your storage conditions and steps before that, ie primary provenance and when purchased, do you freeze, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartagasIV Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Possibly? Without better pictures, it looks to me to be actually oxidation of the gold pigment used in making the band. have seen this mostly on older RA's, just my personal experience, because of the amount of gold coloration. Stripper glitter! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 These multiple threads are too hard for me to keep in track of. Are you saying that you have never personally witnessed plume? Independent of that answer, could you tell us your storage conditions and steps before that, ie primary provenance and when purchased, do you freeze, etc? Could you tell us your storage conditions and steps before that, ie primary provenance and when purchased, do you freeze, etc? First mate, my quote is kind of a joke. I have been mixing fun jests with my post as a means to amuse myself (and perhaps some others). Have I seen plume, bloom, whatever you want to call it? Well, the answer could be yes or no and I am not being cagy or a snot! What is 'it?' What does it really look like? Does it even exist? There is a broad range of answers out there, at least as to 'what it looks like' and enough confusion that most of pictures that I have seen are clearly (from my house) mold!!! If someone asks me if I have seen a humpback whale, I don't look for a dorsal fin and a spout in the local parking garage and claim that I have. I either investigate it thoroughly myself or rely on an expert to identify the beast so that I can relate its form to the being that I have witnessed. Plume et al, should be no different. I have see crystalline type deposits (apparitions if you will) of the nature of salts on cigars before. My assumption was that it was plume. I had no other way to explain it! Kind of like those concerned about sailing off the flat earth. They assumed the earth to be flat, they did not know any better. I have assumed to have seen plume and have the same ignorant excuse; because I had no better answer! So yes, according to the definitions set at this juncture, I have seen it. On the other hand I am not quite sure what the stuff I saw was, nor am I sure about what I am supposed to be looking for. There is no reference material to consult! I therefore will not testify that I have in fact witnessed it… On any given day, I may have played along, but today, with my thumbs in the screw, I will say maybe! "IT" IS NOT DEFINED! How then can I say that I have seen it, positively identifying it, if I don't know what it is that I have seen and referenced it to a known source that I consider authoritative? It is a paradox claiming to know that something without definition exists. I could in fact say that I have seen a phenomenon that 'I' believe might have been plume' and that would be accurate. Of course I could have very well seen 'daboom' and not plume (et al). My definition and name has no better or worse meaning than bloom or plume! A unicorn is a mythical beast that has a definition. So does a cyclops, a hydra and a balrog!!! If I saw one of those I would know it, because I have made a point of knowing about them. If I saw a gal with snakes on her head, one whose glance turned my friends to stone, I would understand she could be one of three sisters and not necessarily Medusa! I don't espy saw dust on my cigars and call it out as plume et al, as others 'may' be doing. So according to my own standards and definitions, it would appear that many of us (me included) know more about mythical creatures than mythical apparitions on the surface of cigars! At least those into mythology have definitions for their mysterious creatures and can describe them. I don't think that phantom 'dust' is gonna' keep anyone up at night. Well, maybe those entrenched in the cigar community… -LOL When one defines it, I will have a better chance at telling the truth about whether I have seen it. Until then, it is exactly what has been shown here; a series of self defined particles of "any matter of things" that people wish to define for themselves! While I am happy to share humidor stories with you, I make them you know… its relevance to something that is as of the moment undefined is a further pursuit of folly! I will not be taken down the road where, "my storage conditions, coincidentally, eliminate or retard plume et al." For the record I have smoked cigars sourced from many of the major players in the cigar world, your host included. From Cyprus, to Oz, I have been around the "rock" so to speak and I am sure you get my meaning. Again, what does that have to do with it? If the rules are that only cigars that passed through the hands Intertabak get plume, well, I still have a chance at it…! I ask again, what does that have to do with it? If you are the guy, or know the guy(s) with the rulebook on plume, please, enlighten me! If the rules are such that each party makes them up themselves (the rules) as they go, that one collector or two have concocted another glorious scam to make their collections even more precious, then that answers the question for me, decisively. That answer would be that there is no such thing! For the record I am glad you asked me the questions and put me on the spot. It makes for good conversation! Please define it and catalogue it for me and I may just believe in it. Until then it is yet another of those anecdotal findings in a cigar box! I think I have a greater chance at catching a glimpse of Big Foot, but I will continue to look for plume anyway, for the same reasons that I think a pet hydra would be cool! Just as long as it did not gobble up my mini horses!!! Cheers! -Piggy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfall Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 First mate, my quote is kind of a joke. I have been mixing fun jests with my post as a means to amuse myself (and perhaps some others). Have I seen plume, bloom, whatever you want to call it? Well, the answer could be yes or no and I am not being cagy or a snot! What is 'it?' What does it really look like? Does it even exist? There is a broad range of answers out there, at least as to 'what it looks like' and enough confusion that most of pictures that I have seen are clearly (from my house) mold!!! If someone asks me if I have seen a humpback whale, I don't look for a dorsal fin and a spout in the local parking garage and claim that I have. I either investigate it thoroughly myself or rely on an expert to identify the beast so that I can relate its form to the being that I have witnessed. Plume et al, should be no different. I have see crystalline type deposits (apparitions if you will) of the nature of salts on cigars before. My assumption was that it was plume. I had no other way to explain it! Kind of like those concerned about sailing off the flat earth. They assumed the earth to be flat, they did not know any better. I have assumed to have seen plume and have the same ignorant excuse; because I had no better answer! So yes, according to the definitions set at this juncture, I have seen it. On the other hand I am not quite sure what the stuff I saw was, nor am I sure about what I am supposed to be looking for. There is no reference material to consult! I therefore will not testify that I have in fact witnessed it… On any given day, I may have played along, but today, with my thumbs in the screw, I will say maybe! "IT" IS NOT DEFINED! How then can I say that I have seen it, positively identifying it, if I don't know what it is that I have seen and referenced it to a known source that I consider authoritative? It is a paradox claiming to know that something without definition exists. I could in fact say that I have seen a phenomenon that 'I' believe might have been plume' and that would be accurate. Of course I could have very well seen 'daboom' and not plume (et al). My definition and name has no better or worse meaning than bloom or plume! A unicorn is a mythical beast that has a definition. So does a cyclops, a hydra and a balrog!!! If I saw one of those I would know it, because I have made a point of knowing about them. If I saw a gal with snakes on her head, one whose glance turned my friends to stone, I would understand she could be one of three sisters and not necessarily Medusa! I don't espy saw dust on my cigars and call it out as plume et al, as others 'may' be doing. So according to my own standards and definitions, it would appear that many of us (me included) know more about mythical creatures than mythical apparitions on the surface of cigars! At least those into mythology have definitions for their mysterious creatures and can describe them. I don't think that phantom 'dust' is gonna' keep anyone up at night. Well, maybe those entrenched in the cigar community… -LOL When one defines it, I will have a better chance at telling the truth about whether I have seen it. Until then, it is exactly what has been shown here; a series of self defined particles of "any matter of things" that people wish to define for themselves! While I am happy to share humidor stories with you, I make them you know… its relevance to something that is as of the moment undefined is a further pursuit of folly! I will not be taken down the road where, "my storage conditions, coincidentally, eliminate or retard plume et al." For the record I have smoked cigars sourced from many of the major players in the cigar world, your host included. From Cyprus, to Oz, I have been around the "rock" so to speak and I am sure you get my meaning. Again, what does that have to do with it? If the rules are that only cigars that passed through the hands Intertabak get plume, well, I still have a chance at it…! I ask again, what does that have to do with it? If you are the guy, or know the guy(s) with the rulebook on plume, please, enlighten me! If the rules are such that each party makes them up themselves (the rules) as they go, that one collector or two have concocted another glorious scam to make their collections even more precious, then that answers the question for me, decisively. That answer would be that there is no such thing! For the record I am glad you asked me the questions and put me on the spot. It makes for good conversation! Please define it and catalogue it for me and I may just believe in it. Until then it is yet another of those anecdotal findings in a cigar box! I think I have a greater chance at catching a glimpse of Big Foot, but I will continue to look for plume anyway, for the same reasons that I think a pet hydra would be cool! Just as long as it did not gobble up my mini horses!!! Cheers! -Piggy What the hell's a Balrog Ray???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optic101 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Courtesy of Wikipedia: Balrogs are fictional characters who appear in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. Such creatures first appeared in print in his novel The Lord of the Rings, where the Fellowship of the Ring encounter one known as Durin's Bane in the Mines of Moria. Balrogs figured in Tolkien's earlier writings that appeared posthumously in The Silmarillion and other books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 What the hell's a Balrog Ray???? … you need a creatures manual mate. You are perhaps a little young for wargaming! Computer games took quarters back then and that was better spent on beer and pizza! Above is a good definition. Horned, winged demigod with a whip…! Bad ass creature… kinda' like you and a couple of 1911's!!! -LOL -R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainQuintero Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Hmmm but would a Balrog burn hotter and more fierce at a lower or higher relative humidity? One would hazard to say at a lower rh, but if so then why would a Balrog choose to hide in the relativity damp atmosphere of deep caverns and be less 'intense in characteristics' and have a 'poor burn'? Is the lower rh of the ash-filled and scorched Angband, where the creations took place, a bigger issue behind the destruction of it's inhabitants, which nearly always took place in greener lands of a higher rh, than previously thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro2486 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 … you need a creatures manual mate. You are perhaps a little young for wargaming! Computer games took quarters back then and that was better spent on beer and pizza! Above is a good definition. Horned, winged demigod with a whip…! Bad ass creature… kinda' like you and a couple of 1911's!!! -LOL -R I believe it's in the Fiend Folio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk05 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Well, I am no scientists, but as long as we are speculating...you can tell mold from 3 of the primary sense, nevertheless sight - which we are abandoning due to doubt, and lack of reference: 1) Touch Mold seems to decompose and biodegrade organic matter. If you have a cigar with 10 years worth of plume, try to wipe it off. The cigar will stay intact. If you try to wipe off 10 years worth of mold off of a cigar, that cigar will rip itself apart from all the wrapper decomposition. Even with a moldy cigar of one year, the mold will leave behind a residue from the decomposition when wiped away. The plume will not. 2) Smell Moldy cigars have a really obvious smell...it's moldy...smells like stale tap water. It does not matter how you doctor the aesthetics. 3) Taste Moldy cigars have a really obvious taste...it's moldy...tastes like stale tap water. It does not matter how you doctor the aesthetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I believe it's in the Fiend Folio Nope, definitely not Fiend Folio or Monstrous Compendium. They were original listed in one of the early D&D supplement booklets. They were later known in Monster Manual 1st Ed as "balors", named after the most powerful of that particular type of demon. The name was changed due to copyright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro2486 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Nope, definitely not Fiend Folio or Monstrous Compendium. They were original listed in one of the early D&D supplement booklets. They were later known in Monster Manual 1st Ed as "balors", named after the most powerful of that particular type of demon. The name was changed due to copyright. True. I think they were last seen in the first white box. Funnily enough after they were removed the copyrights were still in the back of the book for a reprinting or two. Oh wait, am I thinking of Cthulhu? I think we need a roll20 to go along with the poker on FOH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think we need a roll20 to go along with the poker on FOH First roll a d10 for initiative, taking into account any modifiers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghabanos Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Here's some PLUME for you, Frank plumefosho1.jpg plumeforeals2.jpg In case the sarcasm was not obvious, that is mold. U still smoked it right? Tell me it wasn't tossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro2486 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 First roll a d10 for initiative, taking into account any modifiers... I'm rolling reaction + intuition + 1D6 for initiative at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'm rolling reaction + intuition + 1D6 for initiative at the moment You do know that won't matter? Mods always go first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro2486 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 You do know that won't matter? Mods always go first! Can I burn Edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro2486 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 You do know that won't matter? Mods always go first! Can I burn Edge?Ha Ha. Double post FTW!!!111111111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have a Canon 6D with a macro lens, but I doubt I have any cigars in my collection that have developed plume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 You guys are killing me over here… D&D goofballs delight! -LOL Okay if you guys are looking for the ultimate demon of cigardistructology, well it has to be Juiblex… Read them and weep boys, I win…! -LOL I think plume and mold may just be tell tail signs of a visit from Juiblex!!! -the Pig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Well, I am no scientists, but as long as we are speculating...you can tell mold from 3 of the primary sense, nevertheless sight - which we are abandoning due to doubt, and lack of reference: 1) Touch Mold seems to decompose and biodegrade organic matter. If you have a cigar with 10 years worth of plume, try to wipe it off. The cigar will stay intact. If you try to wipe off 10 years worth of mold off of a cigar, that cigar will rip itself apart from all the wrapper decomposition. Even with a moldy cigar of one year, the mold will leave behind a residue from the decomposition when wiped away. The plume will not. 2) Smell Moldy cigars have a really obvious smell...it's moldy...smells like stale tap water. It does not matter how you doctor the aesthetics. 3) Taste Moldy cigars have a really obvious taste...it's moldy...tastes like stale tap water. It does not matter how you doctor the aesthetics. I don't necessarily think that his is all true my friend but can offer only anecdotal evidence. In my example I have a box of HdM Prominentes. There was a time that I, like many, did pursue the collection of EL's (believe it or not). I bought several boxes, what were they 5 count boxes of the Prominenetes EL. This is one such cigar. As I recall, I have had mold issues with all of them, but back in '01 I knew little about the true nature of hygroscopic tobacco. I understood little about the real nature of issues that water caused cigars. As you can see demonstrated, I was naive, even ignorant; hell I can prove it by the fact that I was buying untested cigars in stupid useless numbers in tiny coffins, like these! So about a year ago Decemeber, my friend Mel asks about the prominentes and I tell him that I have some of the EL's left. Okay, I am a flake and I was supposed to send him this cigar… This cigar was covered with mold and Mel wanted it anyway if it draws. Mel is pretty picky about draws and free cigars!!! Mold, not so much!!! So I thought before I would cut the cap to see if draws, I would let it settle for a bit after brushing off the mold. As you can see I still have the cigar! Here is my point. Mold has not distorted or destroyed the structural material aspect of this cigar and I have had problems with these cigars from the beginning. The mold was left untouched for at least a decade, as I had to look for these cigars to find them and I cannot say that I have bothered to open one of the coffins in that time. I swept all the mold away the previous viewing but it takes time for cigars to degas. There was apparently enough water to spout existing mold spores but not enough to keep any of it alive. The duration that the mold was living is unknown to me. So mold needs to continue to grow and to ingest the tobacco as food for it to live. Mold needs capillary water to support its life… Too much water feeds mold and kills cigars… Remove the water and you kill the 'active' mold. The spores on the other hand can likely be revived by simply getting capillary water back into the wrapper of the cigar. This cigar had a rather fine dusting of mold, a lot like some of the dusty picture that I have seen above. Mold growth and development depends on food and water. Deny one or both and you get no mold… This cigar is not rank, rancid in any way. It is redolent of cedar more than anything. So on two points, you have made assumptions that are incorrect, in that they require an assumption of continued mold growth. If the growth of mold is halted, then it can only do what damage it has done while it was alive. While this is anecdotal 'proof' it is my best evidence. My best advice is not to assume anything and be open minded. I am open minded to plume, but I am also aware of the ignorance (not aimed at anyone in particular) of the community at large when it comes to storing cigars and the myths that go along with it. Now for taste… I still have to send this one to Mel if it draws. I have more but would that be definitive? Not really. Good or bad there is no way that I can attribute the flavor to mold, not positively. Cigar today: Original picture in December: I suppose I could have pitched to Mel that the cigar was covered with 'bloom.' Well, it was, what was blooming were mold spores! I don't think that I will ever have problems with mold on these cigars ever again because I have denied them the food for life. There is a relationship to percent moisture content, mold growth and the good taste of a cigar. The 'good taste' aspect is personal opinion! It is all linked to rH and temperature. Isosteric charts of tobacco prove that rH, temp and water are linked. Mold growth is also linked to these factors. Plume et al, on the other hand is unknown to me. If I knew what it was, I might be able to comment on what feeds it! Cheers my friend… -Ray 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk05 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 My mind is very open, and I conduct my own research and come to my own conclusions. However, unless you or wilkey are willing to give me the scientific evidence that mold = plume, then I will have to go about these conversations from the standpoint that mold =/= plume, for the sake of discussion. The original measurement of 10 years was cited to be a very safe estimate, and I stand by that. As previously mentioned, if you have 10 years of active mold culture, the touch/smell/taste test will suffice, although I don't see how a cigar that would look like a marshmellow wouldn't look like mold. I would venture that a cigar with 5 years of mold would be obvious, same with a cigar with 1 year of mold, and arguably a cigar with 6 months of active mold. Receiving a cigar from a vendor and finding mold from the transport is different than having mold present in your storage. PS- your inbox is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 You guys are killing me over here… D&D goofballs delight! -LOL Okay if you guys are looking for the ultimate demon of cigardistructology, well it has to be Juiblex… Read them and weep boys, I win…! -LOL I think plume and mold may just be tell tail signs of a visit from Juiblex!!! -the Pig Now that really depends on whether we classify cigar mold as slime mold or fungi. If cigar mold is a fungi, I would've gone with Zuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habana Mike Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Now that really depends on whether we classify cigar mold as slime mold or fungi. If cigar mold is a fungi, I would've gone with Zuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungi. I just call it Fuzz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I just call it Fuzz …I pushed the like button 18 times, but I only got one like! What a gyp! -LOL He got ya' thar Fuzzy!!! -LOL Of course we could write and define our own god of Plume: Plumenthal or Plumythius, Pluminisauris Collectus Rex… etc. We could have fun for hours!!! I would bet that we would come up with a better decritpion and definition than the stuff itself!!! At least when we were done, if you say Plumythius in you humidor you would know who and what it was!!! -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypicalSituation Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 All I know is that EL is massive. Damn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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