still the same blend

[straizor]

i had a very good discussion about how some cigars didn't get there blends slightly changed over the last 10-20 years. the sancho panza belicoso was mentioned, also the cazadores from RyJ etc.

i don't have a clue about this, since i only started some 4 years ago and less if we count paying attention to a cigar. i do have heard alot of the older gentlemen talk about that the blends did change.

my question is. are there more vitolas in some brands, which didn't undergo such a change?

[garbandz]

Older gentlemen............thank you kindly......

I have seen several references to the change in blend of the RyJ Cazadores.

In my experience they have lost strength since my first boxes in 2009,and even then I had already heard about it .

The latest 2013 box I got was way too mild compared to my other Cazadores.

I will wait a while and try another .

[laficion]

I've been smoking cigars for 43 years and I've noticed that all of the cigars underwent a change in their blends,take for example the HdM Epicure No.1,. It used to be more honeyish and

less earthy then It's today, Also the LGC, RG and SP,use to be more creamy then today. So was ERdM. I remember that It used

to be the case back In the years 70 & 80's The RyJ used to be REALLY stronger then today,Such were the CAZADORES .

The CAZADORES Were soo strong that the smell was not for insides ,So was the Gold Medals from Bolivar,They were also much stronger then today.

Guy

[Smallclub]

The CAZADORES Were soo strong that the smell was not for insides ,So was the Gold Medals from Bolivar,They were also much stronger then today.

Yes, even the Cazadores from the early 2000's were extremely spicy, and you couldn't smoke them inside, the smell was too agressive.

They also often had some incredibly rustic dark wrappers with huge veins; I don't miss these!

An other cigar which the blend is changed is the BBF, IMHO. I would swear that it was much stronger until the mid 2000's…

[straizor]

I've been smoking cigars for 43 years and I've noticed that all of the cigars underwent a change in their blends,take for example the HdM Epicure No.1,. It used to be more honeyish and

less earthy then It's today, Also the LGC, RG and SP,use to be more creamy then today. So was ERdM. I remember that It used

to be the case back In the years 70 & 80's The RyJ used to be REALLY stronger then today,Such were the CAZADORES .

The CAZADORES Were soo strong that the smell was not for insides ,So was the Gold Medals from Bolivar,They were also much stronger then today.

Guy

Yes, even the Cazadores from the early 2000's were extremely spicy, and you couldn't smoke them inside, the smell was too agressive.

They also often had some incredibly rustic dark wrappers with huge veins; I don't miss these!

An other cigar which the blend is changed is the BBF, IMHO. I would swear that it was much stronger until the mid 2000's…

i had the luck to try some vintage stuff from the '70, '80 and '90. they were just a dozen sticks and most of the times just one of each kind. not anything which could have told me something about the blend.

but i had one in particular, a monte 1 from '86, that made me think to myself. wouw this is a totally different liga then now.

another thing also popped in to my head then. can the recent stuff age like those sticks did?

because what i think, i may be wrong, is that the strenght is an indicatore for how long the cigar will keep its flavour. and more cigars are missing those legs to stand on, imo

[garbandz]

"another thing also popped in to my head then. can the recent stuff age like those sticks did? "

That is THE big question..........

This "old timer" has noticed that Cubans in the last 5-7 years are approachable much sooner.

.

[straizor]

This "old timer" has noticed that Cubans in the last 5-7 years are approachable much sooner.

.

totally agree

[CaptainQuintero]

i had the luck to try some vintage stuff from the '70, '80 and '90. they were just a dozen sticks and most of the times just one of each kind. not anything which could have told me something about the blend.

but i had one in particular, a monte 1 from '86, that made me think to myself. wouw this is a totally different liga then now.

another thing also popped in to my head then. can the recent stuff age like those sticks did?

because what i think, i may be wrong, is that the strenght is an indicatore for how long the cigar will keep its flavour. and more cigars are missing those legs to stand on, imo

I think mild cigars age well too, QDO for example age fantastically, ERDM too.

[mk05]

They are using different inputs in the production line, so automatically that rules out your scenario of static blends.

[El Presidente]

"another thing also popped in to my head then. can the recent stuff age like those sticks did? "

That is THE big question..........

This "old timer" has noticed that Cubans in the last 5-7 years are approachable much sooner.

.

Different tobacco stains (and ever evolving).

Better drying control (The use of humidifiers/dehumidifiers in many tobacco barns).

Since 2005, larger quantities of properly aged Ligero (2 1/2 years) and Seco/Volado (1 1/2 years). Apparently today, there is enough Ligero and Seco stored for 5 years current production/demand. Wrapper situation is another thing entirely.

[MPS]

I personally do not think that Habanos sat down one day and said hey let's go ahead and change the recipe for our product. I also don't think the strains differentiations effect flavor that much. I would love to see some documented proof of these across the board blend changes that people are so adamant about. Taste is extremely subjective.

[sw15825]

Different tobacco stains (and ever evolving).

Better drying control (The use of humidifiers/dehumidifiers in many tobacco barns).

Since 2005, larger quantities of properly aged Ligero (2 1/2 years) and Seco/Volado (1 1/2 years). Apparently today, there is enough Ligero and Seco stored for 5 years current production/demand. Wrapper situation is another thing entirely.

Rob, in your opinion, does the younger ages of approachability in cigars come from the higher quality of processing plus tabacco that could be up to 3, 4, or maybe 5 years old at time of rolling? Given the info you provided that seems to make sense with the way cigars have been smoking in last few years.

[sw15825]

I personally do not think that Habanos sat down one day and said hey let's go ahead and change the recipe for our product. I also don't think the strains differentiations effect flavor that much. I would love to see some documented proof of these across the board blend changes that people are so adamant about. Taste is extremely subjective.

I had heard that different wrapper strains, such as Corojo wrapper was more flavorful but don't know if this is true. It was used some time into the 1990s I believe. Do you or anyone have experience to compare?

[El Presidente]

I had heard that different wrapper strains, such as Corojo wrapper was more flavorful but don't know if this is true. It was used some time into the 1990s I believe. Do you or anyone have experience to compare?

You would need a time machine bringing a selection of marques/vitola from early mid 90's and do a side by side with cigars from today (several of them).

The natural ageing process I would assume makes a direct comparison between a 1993 Punch DC and a 2013 example futile exercise.

This has always been an intriguing question

Throw in some other curve balls

• Was the ligero Shortfall of 2000-2004 the reason for the suspected/talked about "blend changes".
• Juan Lopez no 1 and HDM No 1 have no to little ligero. Can their differences in taste over the years be simply down to crop variances (strains/growing conditions or both). Could it be down simply to different factory production.
• Have our own tastes changed over the years. Just getting older sees the destruction of your own taste buds. The reality is you simply cant taste exactly what you did 15 years ago

[MPS]

I had heard that different wrapper strains, such as Corojo wrapper was more flavorful but don't know if this is true. It was used some time into the 1990s I believe. Do you or anyone have experience to compare?

I don't think wrapper imparts that much flavor in a cigar to make one flavorful and another less.

[garbandz]

• "I don't think wrapper imparts that much flavor in a cigar to make one flavorful and another less"

Respectfully disagree,wrapper imparts a great deal of flavor according to every source I have seen.

There is a difference of opinion about how much,have seen various percentages offered.

Have tried a brand from New Orleans,they use one blend and three wrappers.All three are very different in flavor.

[straizor]

I think mild cigars age well too, QDO for example age fantastically, ERDM too.

i'm not saying that they don't age well. i think that ligero makes them go a little extra mile longer.

This one is for El Prez. conidering the curve balls, is/isn't there a vitola from a marca that has stayed close to the blends of yesteryears? it seems kind of impossible with all this factors.

[laficion]

• Juan Lopez no 1 and HDM No 1 have no to little ligero. Can their differences in taste over the years be simply down to crop variances (strains/growing conditions or both). Could it be down simply to different factory production.

Dear Rob,

I think that a change in Tobacco strains and growing different crops,(The Tobacco used to be the "COROJO ") untill 1993 ,

plus adding some " LIGERO", made some difference in the whole tasting profils.It tastes more round now then

the honey-ish taste It used to have. It was just SECO and mostly VOLADO before.

Guy

[El Presidente]

This one is for El Prez. conidering the curve balls, is/isn't there a vitola from a marca that has stayed close to the blends of yesteryears? it seems kind of impossible with all this factors.

That is the conundrum

The blend can remain the same but the inputs can change (different strains/techniques/growing seasons). There can also be intentional changes in blend but my understanding is that this is frowned upon internally on the Cuban side.

Tabacuba keeps things very close to their chest. I sincerely doubt HSA has any input whatsoever in the matter of changing existing production blends.

[Maplepie]

The blend can remain the same but the inputs can change (different strains/techniques/growing seasons).

apparently the old strain was prone to infections and moulds so there's the overwhelming push towards these newer ones with much higher yields.

cigars don't just look as good as nowaday Monte 2s and age to look like 30 year old Monte 2s........ at least, that's what i'd assume

[Chunks96ss]

Very interesting

[tippexx]

That Cuban cigars aged well was a fortuitous bonus not a guaranteed condition. If blends have changed it would need to be by gradual process because if it wasn't experienced BOTL would have noticed immediately. And if a blend has to be changed, simpler to delete a cigar and introduce a new one. I'm no botanist but I believe that the new plant strains in being made disease resistant have lost some natural (accidental) characteristic which allowed the tobacco —once processed — to evolve in flavour over a very long period and with little restriction to the length of that period. Today's product is supposedly more approachable young and without a pronounced 'sick period', (I personally don't think so, but many BOTL are very happy to smoke 2014 cigars ROTB), but whether or not it ages as well as product from 10/20 years ago remains to be seen, and because we're all different we will each have our own opinion. I want to be wrong, but my current gut feeling is that Cuban cigars do not have the same longevity they once did, and that for most vitola 8 to 12 years and then rapid decline will be the norm. Less for RE and LE.

[straizor]

That Cuban cigars aged well was a fortuitous bonus not a guaranteed condition. If blends have changed it would need to be by gradual process because if it wasn't experienced BOTL would have noticed immediately. And if a blend has to be changed, simpler to delete a cigar and introduce a new one. I'm no botanist but I believe that the new plant strains in being made disease resistant have lost some natural (accidental) characteristic which allowed the tobacco —once processed — to evolve in flavour over a very long period and with little restriction to the length of that period. Today's product is supposedly more approachable young and without a pronounced 'sick period', (I personally don't think so, but many BOTL are very happy to smoke 2014 cigars ROTB), but whether or not it ages as well as product from 10/20 years ago remains to be seen, and because we're all different we will each have our own opinion. I want to be wrong, but my current gut feeling is that Cuban cigars do not have the same longevity they once did, and that for most vitola 8 to 12 years and then rapid decline will be the norm. Less for RE and LE.

totally agree. i have the same thoughts about this.

[Smallclub]

I want to be wrong, but my current gut feeling is that Cuban cigars do not have the same longevity they once did, and that for most vitola 8 to 12 years and then rapid decline will be the norm. Less for RE and LE.

So far there is zero evidence to support this, and I don't see why the REs would go a different route from that of regular production (the LEs are an other story).

[maxcjs0101]

Different tobacco stains (and ever evolving).

Better drying control (The use of humidifiers/dehumidifiers in many tobacco barns).

Since 2005, larger quantities of properly aged Ligero (2 1/2 years) and Seco/Volado (1 1/2 years). Apparently today, there is enough Ligero and Seco stored for 5 years current production/demand. Wrapper situation is another thing entirely.

This is actually very good to hear.. personally i dont really mind how the cigar wrapper looks as long as the taste is there.