CC vs NC Culture

[dowjr1]

SO I have enjoyed a good cigar for about 20 years now. Up until about a year ago it was all NCs. Sure I had tried the occasional CC from a friend or trip abroad. I was also active from time to time on a NC forum or two. One of the biggest differences I see is the discussions here on aging the cigars. NC smokers are often discussing how they like a cigar or don't. If they don't like it then it is a blend issue or construction issue. Rarely do I see the idea of, "needs more time"...or "let these sit a couple (or 3 or 5) years and you will have bliss." To be fair, you see it some, but no where near what I see here. It is an interesting difference in culture and thought process.

[Cigar Surgeon]

I've noticed a big shift in the last year where increasingly I've smoked 'fresh' CCs that I think are fantastic and ready to go, and I've commented a number of times that the NC I've reviewed needs more time.

[Louich]

I have smoked my share of NC's (I am not aficionado or expert) but the only ones I ever read about needed of having any benefits in aging are the FFOW and AF Anejo lines.

[Skyfall]

I think a big factor in regards to your observation is that NC's do not have near the developmental and complex flavor characteristics that CC's have. In my opinion. I have just as many go to CC's that are great fresh as I do that benefit from a little deep sleep. Even the ones that benefit from some deep sleep are still better fresh than most if not all NC's in my opinion, so it's not comparing apples to apples. Frankly, I don't think aging does much to NC's anyway, because they are not complex specimens to begin with. A stick that is one note, mono-taste-chromatic, and doesn't have developing flavor profiles to begin with, won't gain those characteristics over time.

My 2 tuppens.

[sw15825]

SO I have enjoyed a good cigar for about 20 years now. Up until about a year ago it was all NCs. Sure I had tried the occasional CC from a friend or trip abroad. I was also active from time to time on a NC forum or two. One of the biggest differences I see is the discussions here on aging the cigars. NC smokers are often discussing how they like a cigar or don't. If they don't like it then it is a blend issue or construction issue. Rarely do I s. the idea of, "needs more time"...or "let these sit a couple (or 3 or 5) years and you will have bliss." To be fair, you see it some, but no where near what I see here. It is an interesting difference in culture and thought process.

I wouldn't call it a culture difference or thought process difference. What the Cuban cigar smoker is talking about, is that cuban cigars generally need some time in their box to taste better. It has to do with various reasons like how long the tabacco was aged before rolling, the strength of blend, how long was fermentation ect. Some smoke great fresh then go what we call "To sleep". I put them back in humidoor, to open up in a couple years, with a much better cigar to smoke. As the saying goes "Cuban cigars improve with age" and we know this also through our proven experiences. I will also add, that Not all cubans improve with age. Its not guaranteed, but most do unless they were not too good to begin with. Jmho

[david8017]

I agree. I'm new to the cc culture and I've noticed that same thing in regards to aging.

[kuzi16]

many non-Cuban cigars are aged before release as well. from what i can gather Cuban cigar factories do not ferment tobacco as heavily, they do not age tobacco as much before the roll and they do not age the cigars as much before they box them (if at all).

some of this may have to do with the culture and how this culture deals with the tobacco itself. there are some complexities to NC tobacco but it takes much more effort to bring them out. Also, Since the culture of NC cigars recently has been "bigger and stronger is better" the market is flooded with cigars that advertise high percentages of Ligero. this is difinitively a less complex leaf no matter what country it comes from.

the culture of cuban cigars has always been about balance and complexity. if that culture of balance and complexity would find its way back to the NC culture then there would be more "age worthy" cigars in the NC market. Seco handles age and complexity better.

sadly it is not in style.

if you look at some of the better more balance NC cigars, they do tend to age better than their over-the-top-power counterparts.

Drew Estates produces some very strong cigars. and none of them age well.

Avo produces some very balanced cigars. they age better.

it may be my opinion but i do feel that the Avo XO ages well and can compete with some CCs when it comes to complexity.

Padron seems to be one of the more popular NCs in the CC world. this may have to do with the fact that Padron doesnt have an aging room like many other NC factories. Padron stics more with a CC tradition.

very interesting discussion here.

[Marker]

90% of your NCs don't do better with age (age being 2-3 years)

90% of your CCs become much better with age.

NC exceptions - Opus X, Anejo, Don Pepin blends mostly.

CC exceptions - most small and minuto sized cigars do get better with age but not much better.

Also it is unfair to compare aging cuban cigars to the 2012-2013 box codes. These have been a revelations of ROTT smoking for CCs. The 2009-2011 box codes sometimes don't smoke as well as the 2012-2013 of the same cigar. It used to be 2-3 years as a general rule to sleep CCs before even starting the box. This recent crop is spoiling us heavily.

[BigWill]

Great topic, I've noticed the same thing being new to cc's.

I also think that the age of cc smokers and the influx of younger nc smokers has to have some correlation with the patience to age a cigar rather than the immediate gratification.

[straizor]

i'm with kuzi16 on this one.

i personally thing that it is the fact, that the CC are almost immedietly shipped as the NC age them for some time.

another fact is that the NC roll the cigar and then let them rest. not like the CC which, for example a GR, age the leaves separatly roll the cigar and ship them. the real microfermentation starts when the cigar is rolled, thus making the NC readier to be smoked.

[Smallclub]

not like the CC which, for example a GR, age the leaves separatly roll the cigar and ship them.

Uh? AFAIK, all habanos have a rest time in the escarpate, including Reserva and Gran Reserva...

[Guyman1966]

Interesting discussion

[Smallclub]

I also think that the age of cc smokers and the influx of younger nc smokers has to have some correlation with the patience to age a cigar rather than the immediate gratification.

True, and a good point. And I have the impression that recent months have seen an influx of these younger nc smokers. Maybe they have heard about the increased approachability of recent habanos?

[Cigar Surgeon]

Drew Estates produces some very strong cigars. and none of them age well.

I've heard this quite a bit. I just recently burned through half a box of Liga Privada No. 9s from 2010 (I do not enjoy the current No. 9 blend) and they were absolutely fantastic. Would rank among the best Liga's I've ever hard.

[bigfunkyg]

I have also found it interesting that most NC's that I have experienced don't date their boxes. I would be curious to know what the reasons are behind that.

[Puros Y Vino]

I've heard this quite a bit. I just recently burned through half a box of Liga Privada No. 9s from 2010 (I do not enjoy the current No. 9 blend) and they were absolutely fantastic. Would rank among the best Liga's I've ever hard.

But even DE admits, they don't blend their cigars for aging. They blend them for immediate consumption. That you've enjoyed a 2010 DE cigar could be a fluke, a misfire on their part in executing on their plans, or the new ones you compared them to just aren't the same as they used to be.

Cuban cigars are the grand daddies of the market. They have the most history, tradition and longevity. They are the standard in which all cigars made anywhere will be judged. FWIW. that's what it is.

What I see in "NC culture" is an acknowledgement of that. From the outright trademark shenanigans of Cuban trademarks, to the homage paying of the Padrons, Fuentes, Pepins to the KNOTB such as Pete Johnson, DE, etc. A lot of NC look and feel are derivative of what Habanos has put out or puts out. Same fonts, and bands used by NC's. Look at the EL bands and some of the designs used by NC manufacturers. There's a heavy influence from the CC world.

Example. Tatuaje Cojonu 2003 vs Cohiba 1966 EL 2011

Very similar. Aren't they? Why is that? Deception? No. Most smokers know a Tatuaje is an NC. Homage? Perhaps. Cigars are a world rich in tradition. Why not play on that? IMO, that's a bit too close for comfort and not very creative. The NC world is very competitive. There are hundreds of manufacturers both big and small. Habanos owns all their marcas. They don't have to compete against themselves. They don't "officially" have to compete for NC sales in America due to the embargo. The rest of the world is another story and NC makers are making positive inroads to overseas.

Another major difference I see in culture is box codes. Cuba has been using them for quite some time and it's given us smokers fits trying to grab certain vintages. NC manufacturers have not. Some are making inroads now but not a lot. The box codes are akin to wine vintages. Some releases due to crops are better or more sought out after than others. Same goes with CC's. You want a box of Sir Winstons. Chances are you're looking for a certain vintage that has done well by you. You want a box of Opus X. You go out a buy the first, cheapest box you can find.

Comments on burn, construction need to be taken with a grain of salt. As any issues can stem from the way you store your cigars as much as they can from how they were made. I've never had burn or draw issues with NC's. The times I did with CC's it was from the problem years (2000/1). And even then, it was a handful. My only "concern" with NCs vs CC's is this. CC's truly look rustic and hand rolled whereas most NC's look too "perfect" and that concerns me. These are handmade products. Why does one look so perfect in comparison to the other?

My 2c

[TiminBC]

I think economics has allot to do with CC's aging well. They cannot afford to age there tobaccos in Cuba as long as others. Cuba optimizes their processing to allow for this. This promotes smokers to get involved and have a stake in when the flavors peak.

I wonder if pre-revolution cigars were aged longer in Cuba than today's cigar.

Just a thought.

[TiminBC]

I wonder if there are any stats on the average age of CC vs NC smokers?

[Cigar Surgeon]

But even DE admits, they don't blend their cigars for aging. They blend them for immediate consumption. That you've enjoyed a 2010 DE cigar could be a fluke, a misfire on their part in executing on their plans, or the new ones you compared them to just aren't the same as they used to be.

Cuban cigars are the grand daddies of the market. They have the most history, tradition and longevity. They are the standard in which all cigars made anywhere will be judged. FWIW. that's what it is.

What I see in "NC culture" is an acknowledgement of that. From the outright trademark shenanigans of Cuban trademarks, to the homage paying of the Padrons, Fuentes, Pepins to the KNOTB such as Pete Johnson, DE, etc. A lot of NC look and feel are derivative of what Habanos has put out or puts out. Same fonts, and bands used by NC's. Look at the EL bands and some of the designs used by NC manufacturers. There's a heavy influence from the CC world.

Example. Tatuaje Cojonu 2003 vs Cohiba 1966 EL 2011

Band-cohiba1966-4.jpg

BandresCojonu2003.jpg

Very similar. Aren't they? Why is that? Deception? No. Most smokers know a Tatuaje is an NC. Homage? Perhaps. Cigars are a world rich in tradition. Why not play on that? IMO, that's a bit too close for comfort and not very creative. The NC world is very competitive. There are hundreds of manufacturers both big and small. Habanos owns all their marcas. They don't have to compete against themselves. They don't "officially" have to compete for NC sales in America due to the embargo. The rest of the world is another story and NC makers are making positive inroads to overseas.

Another major difference I see in culture is box codes. Cuba has been using them for quite some time and it's given us smokers fits trying to grab certain vintages. NC manufacturers have not. Some are making inroads now but not a lot. The box codes are akin to wine vintages. Some releases due to crops are better or more sought out after than others. Same goes with CC's. You want a box of Sir Winstons. Chances are you're looking for a certain vintage that has done well by you. You want a box of Opus X. You go out a buy the first, cheapest box you can find.

Comments on burn, construction need to be taken with a grain of salt. As any issues can stem from the way you store your cigars as much as they can from how they were made. I've never had burn or draw issues with NC's. The times I did with CC's it was from the problem years (2000/1). And even then, it was a handful. My only "concern" with NCs vs CC's is this. CC's truly look rustic and hand rolled whereas most NC's look too "perfect" and that concerns me. These are handmade products. Why does one look so perfect in comparison to the other?

My 2c

You and I have almost daily banter back and forth about CCs and NCs and I thoroughly enojy it. Almost all Nicaraguan tobacco is going to be pre-aged for a year or more, Liga Privadas are typically 3 years for the wrapper, and at least a year for the binder. I think what I experienced was two-fold; the original blend of tobacco that they ran out of coupled with the ligero mellowing.

As far as culture goes, there's no question that Cuban cigars and tobacco has the oldest and richest cigar culture going.

The thing that is similar between NC and CC culture is that when groups of aficionados get together they will nerd out about cigar lines for hours. Or in my case when I was with you and everyone in Havana, sit there glassy eyed and nodding.

[straizor]

Uh? AFAIK, all habanos have a rest time in the escarpate, including Reserva and Gran Reserva...

okey, but not as long as the NCs i'm guessing.

[CaptainQuintero]

90% of your NCs don't do better with age (age being 2-3 years)

90% of your CCs become much better with age.

NC exceptions - Opus X, Anejo, Don Pepin blends mostly.

CC exceptions - most small and minuto sized cigars do get better with age but not much better.

.

I agree with some of the top end NC getting better with age, opus certainly get very good.

Personally I find small CC still get better. Eg RA belvedere are nearly unsmokable until a decade of age. RyJ and partagas Tres petit corona blossom with richness and complexity after a decade too

Siglo 1 and monte 5 I much prefer older rather than fresh too

[ErikB]

I think with CCs we wait till the ammonia goes away and the cigar develops whereas a lot of NCs ( not all of them ) will lose their trademark "pepper bite" when the ammonia dies down and so will fall flat..

[Jimmy2]

It all in the soil .....

You can never compare the flavors that CC offer that NC have to me it's apples and oranges .

As far as Ammonia it's not as noticeable as it was before 2003 from my experience ..

[Guest rob]

Good to see you back, Jimmy!

How is the horse impression going?

[Colt45]

.......if that culture of balance and complexity would find its way back to the NC culture........

A bit of a tangent, but I was thinking of something along these lines just the other day. I do believe that if producers truly wanted to blend for balance and more complexity, that most likely they could. Or that perhaps blending for balance would allow for more complexity......