Aristocrat Help Question

[Laxman]

Just got my MXT Plus I believe it is a week ago, posted some pictures. It has been running for 4 days at 65/65.

The electronic display in upper right corner shows 65 Temp then 65 RH. So last night I put two hydrometers in the unit to see if everything was even top to bottom. When I looked at it this morning the hydrometers showed temp at 62 and RH at 70%. I though maybe they could be off so I salt tested two other ones I have and put them in also. After a few hours I went back and all 4 hydrometers show around 61-61 temp and 70-71 RH. Meanwhile the set and forget unit the upper right corner shows 65/65 lol.

Could Bob not have calibrated correctly? I will call Bob tomorrow and see what he says but was looking for feedback as I know many here have his Humi's.

[PigFish]

I am reluctant to get between you and Bob here. You did buy an item from him so I would like to hear his explanation.

Since I am the local humidor 'guru' I will shed some light on the matter for the sake of the "industry." The fact is mate, no humidors are perfect and sensor placement and 'fact checking' with multiple sensors will cause problems like this in every humidor! The question then is, what sensor is right and why and what can you do about it? I am guessing but I will bet that filling your humidor will likely be the response! It is the rote answer!

You had better go into this not expecting perfection and Bob should have explained that to you. So I will proxy for him now and tell you! Don't expect perfection! If you are attempting it, you had better make sure that the tools you are using are better than the ones you are testing!!! You better know more than the guy you are questioning!

Bob is a well established legend in the humidor community. We have different approaches, all of us that work in this field. It is in bad taste to 'second base' someone, especially publicly, so I am not going to do it… If you find you are having problems that he cannot provide reasonable answers for, you can find my email in my profile… I am not willing to proxy further, but I am willing to help you, even if that means an understanding of the theory and another's product.

-Piggy

[Laxman]

Thanks Piggy! You are the man. I will call him tomorrow and see what he has to say. If he cannot resolve it or figure it out I will shoot you an email.

[Laxman]

Two of the Hydro are the Meade TM005X-M wirelss which I believe cannot be calibrated. The other two are digital and I am redoing the salt test to make sure they are calibrate correctly.

Piggy what hydrometer would you recommend that is not complicated to use as I am clueless when it comes to electronics.

[Carpenter69]

Damn hygrometers will make ya crazy.. I don't know the system your using, I use beads. Once I got mine right and trusted it, I took the hygrometers out. If I didn't I'd be in a mental institution ( where I belong) lol. Good luck, plenty of very knowledgeable guys on here to help ya get it right.

[Laxman]

Yes it is crazy. I believe the issues was the hygrometers were all off 5 to 6 degrees. I didn't salt test them not sure why I put I did lol. But still need to get a better hygrometers then I am using.

[PigFish]

I use a number of products, some that I sell and some that I don't.

I have settled on some very nice sensors, but they are just that… sensors! They work in conjunction with a controller, or some other display device. They require excitation (that is power to you) and they are not a simple plug and play devices. They are plug and play only as a part of 'my' system. I am not going to spin a yarn here, this is not the place.

Some folks build a humidor around a cabinet, or furniture, or around another product that they build. My emphasis is on controls and tested designs. Most of my money is spent there. Most of my time is in testing and research and in teaching.

I saw an open niche in the humidor field as I developed humidors for myself. Well, two of them actually and I went after those. One is based on those who wish to build their own humidors and don't know where to start or what to buy. These are the DIY guys, like me. They are also (or can be) cheap bastards, like me! -LOL So the idea of building kits for those guys, guys like me, came to my mind as a marketing idea. The model is based around people who want something better and don't mind working for it (on it), rather than just paying for it. Better and cheaper based on your own labor is the concept.

The other concept is also egocentric to me. It is anchored in the fact that some of us are numbers and tech guys! We want precision control. I decided to attempt to fill that slot.

I opened up to you, as a proxy for Bob because it might be little easier on you to hear it from me. I mean when you have spent your money and hear what might sound like an excuse from the guy you just spent the money with, it might leave you unhappy. I am sure you got a great humidor. I am also sure it is far from a perfect one…

I think I build the best 'precision' humidor for the money, the kit at least, so I think I can talk freely on this subject as I put myself under the microscope every day here. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET PERFECTION! YOU HAD BETTER CONSIDER A SCIENTIFIC TEST CHAMBER IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SEEK!

Now back to your question. Along with my controls, I also use a number of data loggers. Since I am not really thrilled with the company that I buy mine from, I cannot recommend them. In this area, when I say I use it, it is an endorsement! While their equipment is okay, the guys that I have dealt with over there are really a bunch of horses asses, with lousy support and a buy it first and figure out if it works later attitude. I am therefore not going to endorse their products!!!

I have been offered a deal to represent Lascar data loggers but never took them up on it. I just don't think that the money I can make from them supports the carrying of the product. You can find them online. I used their loggers for years but I have outgrown them. They just cannot perform at my level, but they are handy little products and they work reasonably well. They are cost effective, about $125.00 each and they come with free software for the PC.

If you are serious about cigar climatology, you should get a data logger. You will find out what is going on with your cigars while you are not looking… That is one facet of what precision storage is all about!

I say to you now, be careful what you look for! You had better be willing to compromise if you start data logging! This is from the heart. If you are the type that is going to cross test devices, then you had better be willing to settle… If that is going to cause you sleepless nights, like it does me, then don't open the box and simply settle now! You have already spent the money. There is no sense in getting an ulcer over it.

When it comes to cigar storage you strive for betterment or you settle. There is no middle ground, there is only settling and bettering. Even I settle… My customers settle… There is no perfection! What we debate, what we argue over, compete over, is where you settle and how much it costs! I think I set the bar pretty damn high! I post my data logs all over this site.

While we all settle somewhere I never stop for long! This is what sets my projects apart. When you build your own, when you have the tools and the knowledge, you at least have the option to better your system though your own efforts. You never stop either. You can always tweak and test, make changes and advancements. Sometimes you take steps back… That is life.

Ignorance is bliss as they say. It is all up to you and what you want to know.

I hope that helps. A little later I will post you up a picture of the data logger (Lascar). I am off to the rat race now!

Cheers, Ray

[PigFish]

… since I went off on a tangent about precision humidors, I thought I might give you a glimpse of how I spent my Sunday. While you (rhetorically) were playing golf and perfecting your swing, I was looking for a perfect humidor.

This is a log from today. First, I gotta' say, I don't recommend putting any humidor in an 83˚ environment but that is what I did today. This is one of my humidors, in my shop, with a few grand of my cigars, doing its job!!!

Top line is the shop, running 82 to 83dF and not just for 5 or 10 minutes. It was over 80 in there all day!

Second line, that is the temp in the humidor. Set at 70, pegged at 70!

The bottom blue line is the humidity. Yeah it dips on the cooling cycles, but the average, in 80+ heat is still 58.5rH at a set point of 60. The rH activation logic is actually optimized around the 72-74dF range, where most people will use it. This means that I have trimmed it to react better to dehydration cycles than big heat cycles. Like I said, we all must compromise… We all settle somewhere!

This humidor is really tuned to run in a sweet spot of about 74˚F. But what happens if your AC craps out? Do your cigars bake? If your cooler just runs, you might keep 'em cool but will they sap all the water in the system and dump it in a dish?

Now consider this. If the temp in the shop drops into the 50's tonight this bugger will roll over and start heating! Everything changes but I won't touch a thing. She will ramp into a regular dehydration cycle and start heat when necessary… That is compromise that I can live with!

This is what kind of performance you can get from a humidor when you grind away at it or if you seriously pursue the better mousetrap.

Frankly, when I see just how good this thing works, I get all giddy!!! I just wanted to share!

Tomorrow I will dig out the data logger that is placed away from the sensor and close to the front of the humidor. We will mark up the chart for comparisons sake and we will look at what happens when you put multiple sensors in one humidor…!

Same Pig time, same Pig channel…

Cheers, Mr. Piggy

[PigFish]

This is a sample of the Lascar data logger that I used to use. They sell a couple of types and this is the one with the LCD and enhanced accuracy. They are easy to setup and use. You can leave the LCD on and read it directly if you like.

There are plenty of drawbacks from a critic like me, most of which won't affect the typical user. The worst thing about them is the 1/2 AA battery. You can get them online or at specialty battery stores and they can last 6 mos. to a year.

If you have further questions regarding the logger, just ask!

Cheers! -

[tmac77]

I have likely the same Aristocrat. MXT plus 25" deep. In mine the meter it located on the top right of the humidor. As the humidor is quite tall, at first I had some issues with the bottom section being humidified much more than the top where the meter is located. My fix was to re-position the fans and I then added a couple of oust fans to allow for a better circulation of the air within the humidor.Also try to keep the back corners of all the racks open to allow the air to circulate freely without obstruction. This helped me out and I now have fairly consistent humidity levels from top to bottom.

[PigFish]

I have likely the same Aristocrat. MXT plus 25" deep. In mine the meter it located on the top right of the humidor. As the humidor is quite tall, at first I had some issues with the bottom section being humidified much more than the top where the meter is located. My fix was to re-position the fans and I then added a couple of oust fans to allow for a better circulation of the air within the humidor.Also try to keep the back corners of all the racks open to allow the air to circulate freely without obstruction. This helped me out and I now have fairly consistent humidity levels from top to bottom.

I am glad that this was posted and that I did not have to post it. Frankly, I don't want to appear to be overly critical of anyone's system, while I would like to comment on what the problem is at the same time.

This is a design issue! You recognize design issues when you are critical of them and test for them. You recognize them when you have been forced to fix them before.

This does not mean that there is anything inherently wrong with these humidors. That is not my point. My point is, like always that unless designs are thoroughly tested, they cannot be thoroughly corrected.

Circulation is likely the issue here and TMac seems to have found a solution for it…

All humidors will stratify… It is science, there is no beating it. All you can do is move the air and the water around inside constantly, or on a periodic basis.

I also believe in unified controls. This means that if you use circulation fans as I do, you wire them to run at any event. This means that when the humidifier runs, they run. If the cooler runs, they run. If the dehumidifier runs, they run… heater runs, they run…

If you have a cooled humidor and you use the right fans you can run these 24/7. I always run mine 24/7 when I test. It is the only way to really test a system.

If you don't have cooling well forget full time circulation. In an insulated box, the heat from the electronics will slowly build in your system. It is best to move most if not all of your electronics outside of those types of systems so this advice works for cooled systems only.

As promised I worked up a data log of independent sensors in the same humidor, chronologically aligned.

This is it… Even with full time circulation, there is going to be some variance. The separate data logger is placed about 24" away from the control sensor, below it, and next to the door.

No system is perfect! That is fairly easy to prove. I prove it to myself everyday!!!

Cheers

[Laxman]

Damn Ray, love you your passion! Will definitely be calling you when I need my next system. You said it best that nothing is ever perfect. When I bought the system I was delusional enough to believe I was going to set it at 65/65 and life was going to be good. After reading your posts and few others it looks like that probably is not going to be the case.

Have only had the system running for 6 days so I am sure it takes sometime to get situated. T Mac seems to hit the nail on the head and you dug deeper. Circulation is most likely the issue. I made sure the back of the Humi was open and there is a clear path from top to bottom. But I am sure I need to add a few more fans as it does not seem that what is there is going to do the job. Now here lies the problem as when it comes to anything electronic I am clueless. Probably will have to someone come in and handle it as I would screw it up big time and end up burning down the Humidor and my house.

Also need a but hygrometer system. I have a Meade and using to channels on it but those are 5 degrees off and not sure if I can trust the temp either. Seems to be a 8 to 10 degree RH difference from top to bottom and maybe a 5 degree temp difference. Though this we during the day and even with my AC running at 74 degrees it is humid in South Florida. Which also scares me as the summers are brutal. I had Bob put in 4 cooling units so hopefully that does the trick.

T Mac sounds like we have the same Aristocrat. If you could let me know how you took care of the fans and where you put them I would be grateful.

[Laxman]

Also can never find the Oust fans. Usually lucky if I see one on Amazon if best.

[Laxman]

Thanks Ray, Thought I have no idea what I would do with the logger not sure I could even turn it on!

[cpmurrin]

I have one of the big aristocrats and I find that there is typically a 6% difference from the unit up top to a hydrometer placed on the bottom shelf. As I usually keep the unit as 64%, the bottom is usually at 70%. Occasionally I allow this to bother me as I am concerned about tobacco beetles, etc so I will be interested in Bob's thoughts. Thank you Mr. Piggy for your insights, as always.

[shlomo]

I have one of the big aristocrats and I find that there is typically a 6% difference from the unit up top to a hydrometer placed on the bottom shelf. As I usually keep the unit as 64%, the bottom is usually at 70%. Occasionally I allow this to bother me as I am concerned about tobacco beetles, etc so I will be interested in Bob's thoughts. Thank you Mr. Piggy for your insights, as always.

Humidity has little, if anything, to do with beetles. Humidity relates mostly to mold, temp mostly to beetles.

[PigFish]

Can one of you guys open one of these things up and take some pictures for me. I build a number of ducted fan appliances and circulation products for this purpose. When you push the shelves to the back, how much room is there between the back wall and the shelf?

Frankly if you push air around you don't need fancy enclosure such as those that I make but I cannot just screw a fan to the back and be satisfied!!! Mine are modular, you can hang 'em, set them on boxes, close off a side and use them like an air shotgun… I will have to post up some pictures. I use one model that I use to blast air through a heater. It is how I heat my humidors.

I have engineered them to breathe well, to be finger safe, robust and feed air from multiple areas. They are not exactly cheap, like OUST fans but these really push air around… They require 12VDC power and I usually supply a switching power supply.

I make them to order and don't usually have them around long enough to take pictures, but I have a kit going out the door in a few days and I will have to take some pictures of the fan systems.

When your cooler comes on, do the fans come on with them? How about the humidifier? When they run, do the fans run with it? Do you guys think that you would get faster blending if the system worked this way??? I ask, but it is rhetorical. I have tested many systems and mine are set to run fans any time an appliance is running. I am curious if this kind of upgrade would interest any of you…

Thanks for helping me out! I am always looking for a better mousetrap!

Cheers, Ray

[Laxman]

Picture of draw for Aristocrat

[Laxman]

Ray,

There is about 2 and a half inches from the shelf to the wall and then on each end there is that open L shape for air to go up. There are two fans on the bottom blowing all the way up the L shapes on each side. Two fans up top that were running 1 minute per every 10 minutes. Bob adjusted it to run 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off.

Your fans sound like they would make a big different air flow wise. The bottom level of the humi seems to be 5 to 7 degrees RH higher then the top as the circulation is not good down there.

[tmac77]

Damn Ray, love you your passion! Will definitely be calling you when I need my next system. You said it best that nothing is ever perfect. When I bought the system I was delusional enough to believe I was going to set it at 65/65 and life was going to be good. After reading your posts and few others it looks like that probably is not going to be the case.

Have only had the system running for 6 days so I am sure it takes sometime to get situated. T Mac seems to hit the nail on the head and you dug deeper. Circulation is most likely the issue. I made sure the back of the Humi was open and there is a clear path from top to bottom. But I am sure I need to add a few more fans as it does not seem that what is there is going to do the job. Now here lies the problem as when it comes to anything electronic I am clueless. Probably will have to someone come in and handle it as I would screw it up big time and end up burning down the Humidor and my house.

Also need a but hygrometer system. I have a Meade and using to channels on it but those are 5 degrees off and not sure if I can trust the temp either. Seems to be a 8 to 10 degree RH difference from top to bottom and maybe a 5 degree temp difference. Though this we during the day and even with my AC running at 74 degrees it is humid in South Florida. Which also scares me as the summers are brutal. I had Bob put in 4 cooling units so hopefully that does the trick.

T Mac sounds like we have the same Aristocrat. If you could let me know how you took care of the fans and where you put them I would be grateful.

I simply placed two of them on the shelf above the one that has the humidifiers pointing upwards.

[PigFish]

Ray,

There is about 2 and a half inches from the shelf to the wall and then on each end there is that open L shape for air to go up. There are two fans on the bottom blowing all the way up the L shapes on each side. Two fans up top that were running 1 minute per every 10 minutes. Bob adjusted it to run 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off.

Your fans sound like they would make a big different air flow wise. The bottom level of the humi seems to be 5 to 7 degrees RH higher then the top as the circulation is not good down there.

Are you using Bob's timer function for the fans? How do they operate? 24/7, controlled, timed??? Does the system have access to 12VDC in the humidor? What kind of power supply does the system have?

I would build you a prototype but I am backed up. Perhaps I can CAD something when I have a minute.

Thanks!

Some ideas when I have a minute, I am way behind on correspondence… You guys know who you are, thanks for the patience! -R

[Laxman]

Using Bob's timer system. The fans are all set on timers that can be changed by the operating system (if that is what you call it). He says that the power source is built to plug multiple fans into it. He said that it was set up so you didn't have to cut any wires and could plug into it. Will have to find out if there is a 12VDC power supply or what it is stocked with.

[AlohaStyle]

I bought the same unit. I had to send my controller back because the sensor was WAY off. I pumped full canisters of water within a week before I realized what happened.

Tapatalk wha???

[Laxman]

That maybe the issue as the temp was off 4 degrees which Bob had me reset and adjust something. RH must be off as I have it set to 61 degrees and I range from 65 at the top to 70 degrees RH at the bottom. Probably need a few more fans. They system has been running for about a week so it is probably still settling in, but if I have the RH set at 61 and I am getting a 4 to 9 degree different the sensor has to be off. I speak to Bob this afternoon and see what he says, So far he as been great and goes above and beyond customer service wise. Definitely stands by his work.

[PigFish]

I bought the same unit. I had to send my controller back because the sensor was WAY off. I pumped full canisters of water within a week before I realized what happened.

Tapatalk wha???

Well, that could be a problem!!!

All right, don't have an abundance of time today (I never do anymore!) but here are two possible solutions for you guys with larger humidors.

I see two problems as these systems are described to me. There could be more, I am guessing and I don't like to guess but here goes!

First and foremost is a circulation issue. This is not news! The second is a unified controls problem linked to circulation. Both problems are correctable (again I am guessing) but I cannot guarantee a fix. Fixes, at least to me, means that I can data log the before and after performance. Since I cannot do that, I have no proof, which means that this is just a suggestion and may not fix anything!

As a caveat and since this is not my first rodeo, I have to tell you that I have seen 'solutions' grow into greater problems. While I don't think that this will be the case here and I would not worry about it, sometimes solutions are actually the cause of greater problems… Just and FYI!!!

Solution 1) Unify the controls platform. Now I am not going to write a tutorial here. This is based on a lot of assumptions and unless you have the knowledge to work on electrical items and the guts to cut wires, you had better consider this an academic discussion!

One could sever the wires and the signals between the controller and the different appliances. Lets assume there are three. 1) the cooler. 2) the humidifier. 3) the timer.

You place this item in series with the items severed. Lets call the blue wire cooling, the yellow wire humidify and the green wire fan control/timer. They come "in" from the top and "exit"the bottom.

What does this do? It takes all the signals and pulls off a unified fan control while not back feeding the signals. You put the electronics where it is easiest to breach the controls wire and feed them though as noted with the wires in the picture. The rail is screwed into the humidor somewhere and it holds all the parts.

The result: This results in a system that powers your circulation fans anytime there is a demand on an appliance. No sense cooling air if you are not moving it around! No sense in humidifying air, if you are not moving it around… Get the drift??? (could not resist the pun).

Next: This is a drawing of a fan ducting system that I make. I can make them to any size (within reason) and you at home can copy the design if you are cleaver!

Now my systems are fairly small so this might be undersized for these big humidors, this is just an idea!

Now I don't know what the dimensions on these boxes are. This is just a sample drawn at 30" in length. The idea is to duct the bottom to the top of the humidor and run this via the previous item that I posted. The airflow would be based on the size of the unit and the fan used. This one is based off of an 80mm fan, which I use most often.

I build a number of small modular fan products.

They come in all types of configurations depending on the need. Here are some samples.

Hope this gives you guys some ideas!

Cheer! -the Pig