Similarities / Differences Across a Marque(s)

[Colt45]

We sometimes discuss "brand identity / flavor profiles", "true to the marque", etc. It made me curious as to what members expect from the various sizes across a line - same overall through the various sizes, marque lineage with minor variances in profile for each given size, truly unique profile for each size within a line?

This was sparked from another discussion, but I thought it better to start something fresh

Here is a quote from a previous discuusion (I hope GP doesn't mind) :

A slightly wise and very cantakerous person on some site more than a decade ago put forth the proposition that often cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their

..........A Cuban churchill will often behave more like a churchill, regardless of "brand," then its related robusto from the same marca.

My thoughts on that - Upmann Sir Winston / Bolivar Corona Gigantes / Hoyo Churchills......

Generally speaking, I feel the U SW is closer to the U M46, the BCG closer to the BPC, the HdM C closer to the Epicure N1 than any of the three churchills are to each other.

Cheers for any thoughts.

[CaptainQuintero]

Agree with you with all apart from the mag 46, the Upmann #1 was very, very close. Now Id say a very good PC is closest to a SW. I think it was Guy or Sir Oink who said PCs are the vitola which are blended first in a marca, then all other vitola blends are derived from that. So the PC is where you should find the 'base flavour profile'.

RyJ Churchill - too close to call between the ex #4 and PC

I have a soft spot for the 'crazies', like the boli GM and RyJ cazadorez, mag 46 etc, the black sheep of the marcas but who still perform despite not being generally thought of as traditional profiles to the rest of their marca

But yeah, PCs I expect to generally be the cigar from which all others in their marca to be measured against, shame they are all gone nearly. Coronas fit the bill too for me but again, most are gone maybe this is why the question of marca profiles rises as there is to base point fir a lot of marcas now?

[Smallclub]

I strongly disagree with the idea that "cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their marca".

[Orion21]

I agree with Frank. I went through my mental notes and just can't agree. My Bolivar Belicosos Finos and Sanch Panza Belicosos are nothing alike. The same with my Bolivar PCs and Upmann PCs. And those are the only two I felt like typing, LOL.

[BonVivant]

I strongly disagree with the idea that "cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their marca".

Plus One here

[1LegLance]

I think there is a range across a marque due to the difference in the number of leaves used in each vitola. However to say that most Hermoso #4's are the same is nuts.

Part of the fun is how the cigars in a marca change and retain a core profile....Bolivar Corona Jr-strong, PC milder, Royal Corona-stronger, Belicoso Fino-milder , and such.

For those that subscribe to the sameness in vitolas I would just say have someone put together a blind tasting across a size and then look over your notes....should be considerable difference between say...

Sancho Petite Corona, Monte #4, Boli PC, PLPC, Upman PC and such.

[Blakes]

I agree with you guy's but I do think what the Vitolas have in common is how they are with in comparison to the rest of that given marca, for example I always find the minutos stronger than the PC's the Churchills are generally quite mild compared to the other Vitolas etc etc.. As if they (loosely) follow a "Vitola blend" within the Marcas, but I suppose that's obvious you couldn't make a PC with a robusto blend.

I also guess that's why a lot of people's preferences seem to follow vitolas rather than marcas.

[ewipper]

Some brands to me can suffer the filter of a swollen ring gauge. Others not so much. Fatter vitolas can sometimes interfere with or dilute richness. Shaking from fright at the thought of a 56 ring gauge ERDM or LGC. Also shaking from fright at a thin bolivar or Behike. Might light my mouth pn fire.

[Guybrush]

Fatter vitolas can sometimes interfere with or dilute richness. Shaking from fright at the thought of a 56 ring gauge ERDM or LGC.

The LGC Sublime is a rich and very tasty cigar.

[greenpimp]

Colt, I don't mind at all. I think this is a potentially illuminating thing to think about.

We all think we know a marca so well, that we could tell a Boli PC from a JL PC from a Siglo II. And in general I agree, when well blended they are very recognizable as to their "brand"'s profile.

Except when you are involved in a blind tasting. Multiple of the same size Cuban cigar. Then the surety falls apart substantially and noticeably. We all, with a VERY few exceptions, get many of them wrong.

Are there characteristics of a Cuban churchill? Robusto? Cazadore? I think so. Do they supplant the blend of a marca? Of course not. But due to the limitations of their very size, roll, and cut, I agree that there is kinship in size as well as "brand." For example, the 4-5 boxes of Fonseca #1s I have sampled over the years have the more powerful inklings of what the cazadore size is, almost to overshadow the insipidness of the other Fonseca vitolas I have tried. Still not the street fighter that a RyJ Cazadore is, but still...

[kwsaw63]

I agree with you guy's but I do think what the Vitolas have in common is how they are with in comparison to the rest of that given marca, for example I always find the minutos stronger than the PC's the Churchills are generally quite mild compared to the other Vitolas etc etc.. As if they (loosely) follow a "Vitola blend" within the Marcas, but I suppose that's obvious you couldn't make a PC with a robusto blend.

I also guess that's why a lot of people's preferences seem to follow vitolas rather than marcas.

+1 on that. I too find the larger vitolas stronger than the smaller ones...relative to their marca. Kinda makes sense, as otherwise a strong (relatively) Churchill would have you turning green round the gills!

[Smallclub]

For example, the 4-5 boxes of Fonseca #1s I have sampled over the years have the more powerful inklings of what the cazadore size is, almost to overshadow the insipidness of the other Fonseca vitolas I have tried.

What on earth can be the "inklings of what the cazadore size is", when there are only 2 cazadores available, and they are completely opposite in all respects, they have nothing in common?

[mk05]

I don't think this way at all. In my journey through cigars (call it "primary research" - reading, learning, and smoking), I have come to a conclusion that is (surprise...) completely off the rails and my own. I personally think that there are sub-blends within each blend for the original mother blends, and each mother blend begot new marca blends that share characteristics, so that complicates matters further. I won't go into details since I'll just sound more crazy than I already do.

Perhaps you could say that there was a base blend model in a marca that other blends were based of for different lines within the marca. Off the top of the head, I could say look at RyJ, the Corona seems to portray - at different stages of the smoke - a lot of variants of RyJ lines, such as moving from a Belicosos/Julieta #2 profile to Cedros to Coronitas...meaning several lines within each mother blends tend to localize on a variant or specific facet of the original blend.

[SteveGriff]

I believe trying to make sense of marcas and vitolas almost to be totally futile. Yes, you may have had a "base blend model" at one point in time with a brand, but over the decades vitolas are chopped and changed, watered down, supercharged up, that the waters have indeed been muddied. I believe that we are at this point in the road, but have no idea of the twists and turns in the paths that took us there. And that's assuming the Cubans had a plan at the start.

[SteveGriff]

When the Trinidad line was launched, does anyone know if there was a plan for each vitola in terms of flavour and strength. I dont have enough experience with whole brands to understand how they were mapped out at inception.

[Smallclub]

When the Trinidad line was launched, does anyone know if there was a plan for each vitola in terms of flavour and strength. I dont have enough experience with whole brands to understand how they were mapped out at inception.

You mean when 3 sizes were added to the already existing Fundadores? The blends of the 3 were variations around a theme, to my taste. Exactly like in other marcas.

[ewipper]

You mean when 3 sizes were added to the already existing Fundadores? The blends of the 3 were variations around a theme, to my taste. Exactly like in other marcas.

Right, at least the party line is that the fortaleza remained the same and no new line was introduced, only new vitolas showcasing of how the "prestigious" marca performed in seemingly marketable formats.

Contrasted with say monte open or cohiba siglo.

[greenpimp]

What on earth can be the "inklings of what the cazadore size is", when there are only 2 cazadores available, and they are completely opposite in all respects, they have nothing in common?

Or say Dalias, which are drastically different in size I know but my favorite. They share some smoking characteristics, just as Cuban churchills do.

I'm not saying I completely agree with the original assertion. The blend is still the thing. However I do agree that each size (or quite near to it) inherently share some similarities. We are talking about a puro with leaf sourced from one section of a small island, processed, aged, and rolled in nearly the same way.

That's the "what on earth!"

[greenpimp]

Maybe it's better put his way.

A particular vitola should be a good expression of the marca. Just as a kind of musical form expresses a refrain or movement. Like an aria, symphony, guitar solo can all express the same musical tune or "idea" in a different manner. But symphonies and arias have conventions that connect their form in some way. Just as a particular vitola has similarities across different marcas.

Of course, in the end it's all just old tobacco that tastes smokey.

[anacostiakat]

I strongly disagree with the idea that "cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their marca".

Totally agree.

YMMV but I find that the coronas offer the best blendings by marca for me in most cases. Although I certainly smoke different vitolas.

I like diversity!

[Vortigan]

I strongly disagree with the idea that "cuban cigars have more characteristics in common with their vitola than their marca".

+ 1 on this

My Bolivar Belicosos Finos and Sanch Panza Belicosos are nothing alike.

As close to a definitive indication as one is likely to find IMHO.

[sengjc]

When the Trinidad line was launched, does anyone know if there was a plan for each vitola...

Maximize Habanos SA's revenue.

[johnhenry]

I have been told by several blenders and and a few high ups that most often a corona or corona extra is the first blend of a line or brand. That being said I think the RyJ prince of wales and the cf were almost identical in flavor as are the Erdm cs and pc.my .02 cents.

[Smallclub]

I have been told by several blenders and and a few high ups …

Cuban "blenders", working for Cubataba? Excuse me if I doubt it…

[canadianbeaver]

Have been following this with interest. A couple of questions.

In a particular marca in the same year, would the same tobacco blend be used in just different sizes?

From year to year, different leaves come in from different harvests. Wouldn't the natural change in weather/ stock/ whatever naturally change the flavours in the tobacco?