Michael Sam

[dafrey23]

Race is not a choice or a biblical sin.

And homosexuality is? Spend some time with a *** man and you'll change your mind on that.

[mash]

just cause the name rhymes.....lol

its a big deal because it can severely and negatively affect team chemistry.

whatever team he will be on, if any, he will be avery polarizing player. some will be supportive, others will fear him anc yeg others will hate him.

it is a huge gamble to draft him, and it is doubtful some cities in less than friendly states would even consider him. seattle would work, any of californias teams, floridas teams, buffalo, all possibilities.

There was a time when everything you said would have applied to a black player.

Society will adjust. This guy has just as much right to be drafted and play as anyone else in the NFL. He starts getting some key sacks and his sexual orientation all of a sudden isn't so important.

[Murri]

Don't think I will live to see it but would love to live in a world where peace and tolerance of others is universal.

Would be nice if race, orientation, religion etc were not news stories.

[Ryan]

This thread just took a turn for the whatever...

I was simply saying, I don't care if they play sports or whatever career they choose. I in no way endorsed that I agreed, accepted or approved of the lifestyle choice. Why is it always the first thing a crusader brings up is the comparison to race??? I've never understood this. It's illogical and irrational.

Race is not a choice or a biblical sin.

So you are saying that being *** is a lifestyle choice.

Do you remember the day you chose to be straight?

[Ryan]

I like this newscasters response to Michael Sam's news. Imagine this even 20 years ago.

http://twentytwowords.com/dallas-sportscasters-shocking-response-to-michael-sam-coming-out-as-***/

[pwhite]

Ken,

I backed off this conversation because I felt I took it down a road that it was not intended to go down.

However, your thoughts on the bible, it's timeline and accuracy, in my opinion, really need some clearing up. I'm not sure if Rob wants a thread on here about religion, however, to me politics and religion are the two most important things to discuss, due to the long range implications of both, they are ,however, the two most polarizing.

That being said, I would love the opportunity to have a dialog regarding your beliefs on how and when the bible was created and what I feel is the truth, which is very different from yours.

[CaptainQuintero]

The Ten Commandments is pretty much set in stone isn't it?

I can't remember anything about being *** on there, unless God forgot? But God is infallible.

Surely if anything came after the ten commandments it could only apply if it doesn't go against them seeing as they are Gods Law for us to live by. So regardless of if his son, aunt, gardener or secretary came along after and said being a man loving another man is a sin, that goes against the word of God: 'love they neighbour' so has to be deemed false, unless you are putting someone above or equal to God, which of course damns your soul to hell.

Seems pretty straight forward to me, if you're a Christian the Ten Commandments are infallible, cleat and non/negotiable.

Homosexuality was rampant in at least Ancient Greece and Rome, if it was such a sin wouldn't god have mentioned it in the commandments? Ie in brackets after love thy neighbour?

[Orion21]

The guy is an undersized *** defensive lineman. If he was a first round talent teams wouldn't think twice about picking him. But since he is considered a 4th-5th round talent what team will want the type of distraction the media will create by selecting him that low in the draft? Sam being *** isn't the issue, it's the media creating this story that's the issue. However, the mans ability to play on the football field is what really matters. If he impresses a GM he will get drafted, but that GM and his team will need to be equipped to handle the constant media scrutiny he will bring.

[Skyfall]

The guy is an undersized *** defensive lineman. If he was a first round talent teams wouldn't think twice about picking him. But since he is considered a 4th-5th round talent what team will want the type of distraction the media will create by selecting him that low in the draft? Sam being *** isn't the issue, it's the media creating this story that's the issue. However, the mans ability to play on the football field is what really matters. If he impresses a GM he will get drafted, but that GM and his team will need to be equipped to handle the constant media scrutiny he will bring.

Tell him to be unruly and go commit crimes, Jerry Jones will want him!

[Zigatoh]

Doesn't the same idiot in the bible who condemned homosexuality also state it was a sin to eat lobster, crab, prawns and the like?? Can't remember his name now but he came out with some amazing bull

[Zigatoh]

Leviticus? Something like that, can't pick and choose which bits to believe so put the shellfish down! Oh and those clothes that are x% cotton and x% polyester... SIN!

[Skyfall]

Doesn't the same idiot in the bible who condemned homosexuality also state it was a sin to eat lobster, crab, prawns and the like?? Can't remember his name now but he came out with some amazing bull

If you want to engage in intellectual and intelligent debate, then do so, but be respectful and keep in mind the intelligent part. A debate of differing opinions and viewpoints is what sets us apart as civilized. Debate is good. Nothing wrong with debate,but no one here is going to convince anyone else to believe their viewpoint, no matter how hard anybody tries. It can be debated back and forth all day, everyday until the internet breaks, but it's not going to change anyone's mind. With this, there are no facts on either side. It's faith not facts, so it's up to each individual to determine what faith is and what their faith in anything, means to them.

There....that's settled, so let's drop it!

[Zigatoh]

Ok, to be intelligent, look up Leviticus, then try and claim that the bible is an all or nothing thing, that was my (tongue in cheek) point.

[Skyfall]

Ok, to be intelligent, look up Leviticus, then try and claim that the bible is an all or nothing thing, that was my (tongue in cheek) point.

I was referring to calling scholars in the Bible idiots....

[Zigatoh]

Well, be fair, seriously, some of the things he came out with.... But ok, my apologies, point stands tho.

[FireDigger]

I think Michael Sam will do ok even if his NFL career does not work out. Good for him!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10445011/michael-sam-inundated-marketing-opportunities-coming-out

[Skyfall]

Well, be fair, seriously, some of the things he came out with.... But ok, my apologies, point stands tho.

I'm not going to explain Biblical Theology to you, or Old Testament vs New Testament Theology to you, or Laws vs Codes vs Ceremonial vs Guidelines to you (of which I have years of academic experience with all), but we can simply agree to disagree.

[Zigatoh]

Fair enough, wasn't trying to have any kind of issue with you skyfall. It was pwhites posts really, hard to quote on phone tho. His posts on page 1 don't give the impression of their being room for debate on the meaning of the bible... So the clothing and shellfish points were where I take issue with that kind of point of view.

[Bahnofstrasse]

This has been every bit as good as that Deer Hunting thread...

[Guest rob]

I was referring to calling scholars in the Bible idiots....

With respect, but the 'scholar' he called an idiot wrote about it being acceptable (or mandatory) to stone another human being soley for their sexual preference.

[Zigatoh]

Oh wait, he bloody did too! Cheers Rob (respectfully).

[jacktarnold]

The biggest issue I have is the fact that it has to be news. I'm Christian and believe homosexuality to be sin; however, that also doesn't mean that I'm incapable of loving that person as a human and interacting with that person. I most certainly do things that others would consider unmoral or sin. The root of the bible is that we are not all perfect. I won't go further because of the religious implications as this is a cigar forum and pretty sure religious debates are against the FoH mantra. As Skyfall said earlier what makes us civilized is the fact we have differing opinions and to debate is fine but don't get upset when the other side doesn't magically agree with you.

To me, and I believe to the original question, isn't there more to report on in the world than the sexual orientation of a football player?

[Ken Gargett]

Ken,

I backed off this conversation because I felt I took it down a road that it was not intended to go down.

However, your thoughts on the bible, it's timeline and accuracy, in my opinion, really need some clearing up. I'm not sure if Rob wants a thread on here about religion, however, to me politics and religion are the two most important things to discuss, due to the long range implications of both, they are ,however, the two most polarizing.

That being said, I would love the opportunity to have a dialog regarding your beliefs on how and when the bible was created and what I feel is the truth, which is very different from yours.

more than happy for it.

entirely up to you and rob - rob and i have had many such discussions, though most would have been stomped on by the mods in about two seconds.

i suspect neither of us will change the other's opinions, and i am fine with that, but it might be interesting.

[Colt45]

......though most would have been stomped on by the mods in about two seconds.

Of which you are one.

[westg]

more than happy for it.

entirely up to you and rob - rob and i have had many such discussions, though most would have been stomped on by the mods in about two seconds.

i suspect neither of us will change the other's opinions, and i am fine with that, but it might be interesting.

I do not know who Michael Sam is , if he is..... what this post is in fact suggesting then that is what God made him, Although what would I know I have no faith at all. Go Ken go.