Dry Boxing Question

[lovesmallrg]

Great thread.

I think I'm going to have t read it again, and let it sink in.

[TheGipper]

I thought it was pretty clear that the suggestion to put them in the refrigerator was because that is the only practical solution to find a lower RH environment for the OP. If ambient RH in this guy's house is 70+%, then the refrigerator is probably the only thing he's got that will be significantly less than that - i.e., a household refrigerator is the only moisture-removing device the average person has access to at home.

I doubt the suggestion had anything to do with lowering the temperature having some magic affect on moisture extraction from a cigar, as was assumed.

Likewise, if you heat up a sealed container that was at 70% at 70 degrees, do you really remove any moisture from the cigar? Yes, a digital hygrometer will read a lower RH, but that's a function of the increased temperature, of course - even though there's the same amount of water vapor in the sealed container.

[sw15825]

Can someone please explain the finer points of dry boxing to me please?

I've decided to give it a go with some of the cigars I've got that are either a little over humidified or sticks that i've been told NEED to be dry boxed before smoking

The issue i have is thus:

Where I live the ambient RH is never below 70% at this time of year

I have a humidor that has never been seasoned and has just sat on my shelf waiting for the day when i could find a use for it

I put a calibrated digital hygro in the humi without a hymidfer and left it for 3 days

After 3 days in the humi the hygrometer read 69%rh

Considering most of my humis run at 70%rh it seems like dry boxing would do very little for me at this time of year.

I considered using Silica Gel or low RH boveda packs to creat an enviroment inside the humi under 55% to allow my cigars to shed some moisture and then dry box the sticks for 18-36 hours

I am in the process of ordering new 65% beads for all of my humis but considering i'll need between 12 and 15 pounds of them, it will take a while to find the cash

I think lowering the bead % is good place to start. You could drop to 65 % and see how they smoke. Mine used to stay at 62 to 64% with 65% beads if I didn't charge them

[PigFish]

I thought it was pretty clear that the suggestion to put them in the refrigerator was because that is the only practical solution to find a lower RH environment for the OP. If ambient RH in this guy's house is 70+%, then the refrigerator is probably the only thing he's got that will be significantly less than that - i.e., a household refrigerator is the only moisture-removing device the average person has access to at home.

I doubt the suggestion had anything to do with lowering the temperature having some magic affect on moisture extraction from a cigar, as was assumed.

Likewise, if you heat up a sealed container that was at 70% at 70 degrees, do you really remove any moisture from the cigar? Yes, a digital hygrometer will read a lower RH, but that's a function of the increased temperature, of course - even though there's the same amount of water vapor in the sealed container.

The refrigerator suggestion is not really a good one, that is why I argued it!

No one suggested that the lower temperature of the refrigerator has a magic effect of moisture extraction… or perhaps I missed it somewhere. The opposite is in fact true! Cooling a hygroscopic material lessens its ability (generally) to give up water! Evaporation is an endothermic process! This means that energy (heat) must be acquired by the water molecule to set it free. It is why you feel cool when sweat evaporates from your skin.

It makes me wonder why more people don't test for themselves yet will just blindly follow wives tales!

So I have done it for you! I took a NC I bought and weighed it. It weighted 313 grains. FYI, 1 grain is 1/7000 of a pound and my scale is accurate to 1/70,000 of a pound.

I put it in the fridge for 8 hours and returned it to the scale. It lost exactly 1 grain of water.

Lets make some assumptions and do a little math, shall we?

Lets say the cigar was Virginia tobacco, a tobacco that I have an isotherm for. According to the German company that I got the isotherm from, if this were Virginia tobacco and stored at 70rH at 20C it would be 15% water by weight if given enough time to come to equilibrium moisture content. So for kicks, I will use that number!

This would mean that of the 313 grains total weight of the cigar approximately 46.95 grains if it is water. Eight hour exposure to a rather dry, yet cold refrigerator net a loss of water equal to 1/46.95.

That is a meek 2.1299% loss of water! In that same time you risked the cigar picking up unwanted smells and tastes from the refrigerator! IMHO, refrigerator dehydration is a poor idea. It performs poorly, as a cold environment is not conducive to dehydration (as stated earlier) and it contains a certain amount of risk in fouling your cigar!

The idea is a bad one! Use it if you like, and preach it if you like. That won't make it a better idea!!!

I chose not to subsequently toss the cigar in the freezer for 20 minutes. I will make an educated guess that if 8 hours in the fridge did little, then 20 minutes if the freezer will likely do even less! Someone else can test that, I am bored with the idea already…

The question about absolute humidity and a corresponding declination of rH due to a rise in temperature is exactly the point of that argument. When water is heated it will break bonds with itself and with hygroscopic substances more readily. It is a well known axiom that heat aids dehydration!!! Heating works, and it is easy to accomplish! You don't have to worry about your cigar falling into last nights supper either!

Cheers! -the Pig

[TheGipper]

I guess I don't understand why it's a bad idea if there is no other option, as was this guy's case. The guy has 70% RH outside his humidor. What other choice does he have to deal with overhumidified sticks?

[UpInSmoak]

He could throw them in an oven ( on its lowest setting). That would likely dry them out pretty quickly. I've never done it, as I've never needed to. But if dry boxing is necessary in high humidity environments, using only common available household items, that should do the trick. I think Ray would agree.....hmm?

[polarbear]

Thanks for the write up, piggy

Very informative

Here's a thought, and plase correct me if i'm worng

If i wish to 'dry box' a cigar that is in my 70/70 wine fridge and i took it out and placed it in a humidor that contained as 65% boveda pack that had an ambient temp of 30degrees C (i'm not sure what that is in F) and left it there for a couple of days, then that could act as a dry box?

As you have mentioned in previous threads (you really are a wealth of information on this topic) the moisture content of warm air is lower than the moisture content of cool air due to the air density being lower (hot air expands ect)

This means that 65%rh at 30degrees C air contains less moisture than 65%rh air at 18degrees C

By placing a cigar in the warmer 65% humidor this will act as a dry box because the dew point of the air contained within the humidor would be lower, and the higher temps will also allow the cigar to shed humidity faster than it would if placed in a cooler enviroment with 65%rh. This could act as a dry box and allow the cigar to shed excess moisture, albeit, a litle slower than it normally would.

It looks like i'll be buying some 60% beads based on your recommendation regardless but its always nice to know the finer points of this hobby

Maybe the term 'dry box' would not be appropriate here.

Maybe I'll need to 'hot box' my sticks until all my new beads arrive

[meatball41]

this is a great thread, I love when science debunks conventional wisdom or popular beliefs. I too have put too much faith in CW for a variety of topics. One of them, as an aside to the original posters question, was that freezing my sticks (to kill beetle eggs/larvae) would also dry them out if left in the freezer too long.

Pigfish, Is it correct then, if my sticks are frozen solid that no water will evaporate at all? When they thaw they will contain the same amount of water weight as when I put them in the freezer?

[PigFish]

Thanks for the write up, piggy

Very informative

Here's a thought, and plase correct me if i'm worng

If i wish to 'dry box' a cigar that is in my 70/70 wine fridge and i took it out and placed it in a humidor that contained as 65% boveda pack that had an ambient temp of 30degrees C (i'm not sure what that is in F) and left it there for a couple of days, then that could act as a dry box?

As you have mentioned in previous threads (you really are a wealth of information on this topic) the moisture content of warm air is lower than the moisture content of cool air due to the air density being lower (hot air expands ect)

This means that 65%rh at 30degrees C air contains less moisture than 65%rh air at 18degrees C

By placing a cigar in the warmer 65% humidor this will act as a dry box because the dew point of the air contained within the humidor would be lower, and the higher temps will also allow the cigar to shed humidity faster than it would if placed in a cooler enviroment with 65%rh. This could act as a dry box and allow the cigar to shed excess moisture, albeit, a litle slower than it normally would.

It looks like i'll be buying some 60% beads based on your recommendation regardless but its always nice to know the finer points of this hobby

Maybe the term 'dry box' would not be appropriate here.

Maybe I'll need to 'hot box' my sticks until all my new beads arrive

You kinda lost me my friend. One of my problems when I try to read someone explaining something back to me, as a means to understand the topic, I find myself getting lost in correcting all that I see as mistakes in the statement and never get to the point. It is hard for me to further break down some of these topics and I think you are getting the gist of it but some of the comments that you have made make me believe that I have been misunderstood on some of the details. I hope you don't mind my candor!

Lets look at your problem generally rather than in a lot of great detail.

If you are hell bent on dry boxing then high density beads are not a good use of your money! Paying someone to hydrate beads for you, just so that they get over saturated by your environment in short order will not be money well spent. Hell, I would prefer you buy my dry beads, if a dry box is what you want, but again, an engineered desiccant for this purpose is not really an expense I could rationalize if I were you.

Okay, I don't like cat litter chipped silica! But it might have a place here. Can you get some of this stuff where your are? If you can, make sure you don't get any with cobalt, buy some in bulk, buy some mason jars and clean sheet pan, and a metal funnel.

If you can weigh the desiccant with any precision, fill a mason jar and weigh it and the mason jar separately. Take the contents and bake it at 200dF for several hours opening the oven and allowing any moisture trapped in the oven to escape. Once you have figured you have dried it enough, fill the mason jar with the hot desiccant and cap it off. Let it cool… Mason jars are safe at the boiling point of water so you should not break the jar from the heat.

I kinda' hope you are seeing some similarities here. Not once did I suggest you 'dry box' the desiccant to dry it!!! If you want to drive out the water, you heat it, with it the water heats, and hot water wants to turn to gas as hot water vapor. Hot space holds a lot of hot water vapor, and the water vapor seeks the open space over the bonds of the desiccant as it takes on energy from the space itself. This is exactly how tobacco and water vapor act, just to complete the lesson.

You might have hell getting the lid off after it has cooled as the hot gasses will contract once cooled. For kicks you might want to weigh the jar with the desiccant to see just how much water you took out of the chips.

You can take these chips and pour them into the bottom of a box, cover with a sheet mahogany or cedar veneer from a cigar box and you have a new dry box. Once the chips have taken on water from your environment just swap them out with another jar full that you prepared in advance!

Here is the point. A dry box is not a dry box unless it is dry! 65rH is not dry!!! Nor will it remain that way once you put wet cigars in it or open it to a wetter environment. Leave your 65rH beads open to 70rH for 48 hours or so and you now have 70rH beads, not 65rH beads any longer. This is how desiccants work!

Now that I have gone over all of that, why don't you use your active cooling system on your wine cooler to dry out your stock somewhat and "f" the dry box idea?

So to sum it up don't sink a ton of money into high density desiccant for this task, you don't need to. If you are going buy a high density desiccant buy it dry not already in a state where they won't help you much.

Lastly lets look at some simple samples to help you out.

If you want to dry cigars, the best order would be as follows:

Lower rH and higher temp.

Lower rH and same temp.

Same rH and higher temp.

Lower rH and lower temp.

Now these rules are generalities as far as putting a cigar in a refrigerator is concerned. What I don't want is someone taking me to task and asking me if he reduces 1 degree and reduces 5rH is that better or worse than pi times the diameter of the sun, minus the distance from the moon to the square root of the winning lotto numbers!!! I am making general statements. Reduction of rH is the first best step, but if you counter it by cooling at the same time, you are spinning your wheels!

Next, 5rH will in actuality make a considerable difference in your cigars, OVER TIME, depending on temperature. 5rH for a number of hours will have little if any effect. When I say dry box, I mean a delta of 20rH or more! There is a phenomenon called hysteresis, and with it one must understand that you need push outside of the envelope in order to 'move' your moisture content with any speed.

Water vapor is in a constant state of change in your tobacco products. If you want the momentum to be one way, the larger the delta, (rH and temp) the faster the transfer rate. If the goal is to be meaningful for a 24 to 48 hour stay in the dry box, a couple of rH nor a couple of degrees are going to make that big of a difference.

I hope this helps. Feel free to write more if you have more questions. -Ray

[PigFish]

He could throw them in an oven ( on its lowest setting). That would likely dry them out pretty quickly. I've never done it, as I've never needed to. But if dry boxing is necessary in high humidity environments, using only common available household items, that should do the trick. I think Ray would agree.....hmm?

Yup, suggested it already. Not an oven just because I don't like the idea of putting flavors in my cigars such as the refrigerator might do. Remember the Easy Bake Oven? A lightbulb in a box!!! An open cigar cab box with a lightbulb in it, raising the temperate say about 20dF, and allowing the freed water to escape to the outside environment should do the trick nicely!

Gives me an idea! Maybe I should go into the hot box business!!! -LOL

Hell, I got enough controllers around here to make a really 'cool' one! I am gonna' fab one up and give her a test!!!

Cheers! -R

[polarbear]

Pretty sure I'm picking up what you're putting down

I've got a couple of ideas to try and we'll see how it all goes long term

Thanks again Ray

I appreciate all the time and effort you put in to help educate us simple smokers

[PigFish]

I guess I don't understand why it's a bad idea if there is no other option, as was this guy's case. The guy has 70% RH outside his humidor. What other choice does he have to deal with overhumidified sticks?

Mate… the thread is chuck full of ideas! There are three axioms to drying tobacco. Lower rH, higher heat, and greater circulation. Zero atmosphere might be a trick!!! But I don't know too many people who can pump down zero atmosphere in their home! -LOL

Our mate has 70rH and 70dF outside his humidor! He has got a choice to increase his temperature in a homemade hot box and he does not have to risk his cigars tasting like BBQ brisket in the process… I think the fridge is a bad idea. I mean if you like the idea, who am I to argue? We can agree to disagree! The fridge is not a place for my cigars. What anyone else does is their business!

In my recent post I tested the idea with a precision scale. 8 hours in the fridge can have your cigar smelling like leg-o-lamb… for 2% water loss. That adds up to a bad idea in my book! No offense meant. If it works for you, don't let me stop you…

Cheers, -R

[lovesmallrg]

Let me throw another idea in here.

1. The beads I am using do not have a "set" point, they work by establishing an equilibrium in an enclosed space,,. they absorb so rapidly, that you cannot put water directly on them. If you do pour water on them they will semi-explode and desintegrate. They work by absorbing so much, that once you get them to an F/H level they then hold that level better than others. I've been using them for a couple of months now.

you raise R/H by setting a sponge saturated with distilled water into the humidor.

I've been using these several months - they serve our purpose well, but working with them is a little different.

I'm liking them so much, I'm probably going to buy more.

It did take longer for the cigars, boxes etc. to get stabilized than I expected.

[PigFish]

Pretty sure I'm picking up what you're putting down

I've got a couple of ideas to try and we'll see how it all goes long term

Thanks again Ray

I appreciate all the time and effort you put in to help educate us simple smokers

No sweat mate. Don't mind helpin' the good folk of Darwin, evolve!!! -LOL Best, Ray

[polarbear]

No sweat mate. Don't mind helpin' the good folk of Darwin, evolve!!! -LOL Best, Ray

Darwin isnt exactly Cigar Mecca

But if you want to talk about all the ways to get beer cold quickly we're your people!

[PigFish]

Darwin isnt exactly Cigar Mecca

But if you want to talk about all the ways to get beer cold quickly we're your people!

…Hmmm! They might be needin' some of your solutions over on the Global Warming thread!!! -LOL -Ray

[Tino]

Gents, if you're afraid to put cigars in your fridge, clean your fridge

[PigFish]

Gents, if you're afraid to put cigars in your fridge, clean your fridge

I can respect that opinion, yet I think things belong in their own space. I don't put food in my humidor, nor tobacco in my fridge! I hold my ground on the sink verses the toilet issue as well…!!! -LOL Yea, I keep the toilet clean, but I am not going to brush my teeth in it!!!

Cheers!

[PigFish]

this is a great thread, I love when science debunks conventional wisdom or popular beliefs. I too have put too much faith in CW for a variety of topics. One of them, as an aside to the original posters question, was that freezing my sticks (to kill beetle eggs/larvae) would also dry them out if left in the freezer too long.

Pigfish, Is it correct then, if my sticks are frozen solid that no water will evaporate at all? When they thaw they will contain the same amount of water weight as when I put them in the freezer?

I wanted to come back to this.

Ultimately there is a point where water will not migrate. Ice exists in space for example. The cold locks the water up tight such that zero atmosphere and 0rH will have 0 effect.

This should give one some idea, when going to the 'n'th degree, what temperature means to water migration (diffusion).

I cannot say that you will get your cigar cold enough in your freezer to completely stop water diffusion because I don't know the answer. I would have to say, that in the time and at the temperatures that one devotes to freeze fumigation one should not damage their cigars due to dehydration. This would not stop me from protecting them however.

Since I have no intention of storing my cigars in the fridge nor the freezer, that pretty much exhausts my interests in the matter. While I dabble some in esoteric cigar science, my interests center around the pragmatic use of science to solve real issues.

Hope that helps… -R

[meatball41]

well done, thank you

[sw15825]

So, Piggy, given a condition of wetter rh in environment, the choice to use dry beads at a lower %, keep temps a little higher for me as close to 70F and add fans to my coolers (oust fans) meet all three changes you talked about for keeping the cigars dryer and in my case more enjoyable. Since this is what I have to work with currently and given ambient conditions it can work. And I had to learn through process of elimination because of not understanding the science and following the 70% myth. So Ie. Lower RH, higher temps and more circulation, not having to try to "Dry box" , because I can't on most days of year in my living area. The only thing I understand fully is the sticks taste better right out of my storage and that makes things much more enjoyable! I wish I understood how beads really work though.