Dry Boxing Question

[polarbear]

Can someone please explain the finer points of dry boxing to me please?

I've decided to give it a go with some of the cigars I've got that are either a little over humidified or sticks that i've been told NEED to be dry boxed before smoking

The issue i have is thus:

Where I live the ambient RH is never below 70% at this time of year

I have a humidor that has never been seasoned and has just sat on my shelf waiting for the day when i could find a use for it

I put a calibrated digital hygro in the humi without a hymidfer and left it for 3 days

After 3 days in the humi the hygrometer read 69%rh

Considering most of my humis run at 70%rh it seems like dry boxing would do very little for me at this time of year.

I considered using Silica Gel or low RH boveda packs to creat an enviroment inside the humi under 55% to allow my cigars to shed some moisture and then dry box the sticks for 18-36 hours

I am in the process of ordering new 65% beads for all of my humis but considering i'll need between 12 and 15 pounds of them, it will take a while to find the cash

[canadianbeaver]

So excuse me for being a moron here, but if the inside is the same as the outside, and dry boxing won't do much, why not just crack open a beer and not worry about it?

[MC4]

Good topic. I would like to know as well.

What should be the RH inside the box?

[polarbear]

So excuse me for being a moron here, but if the inside is the same as the outside, and dry boxing won't do much, why not just crack open a beer and not worry about it?

That was my first idea

The problem is, my RASS smoke really well when stored at below 65%rh. When they are stored at 70% they become muted (I've experemented with this and the RH is the only factor) and I really like RASS and now own quite a few of them. I'd like them to smoke as good as I know they can

Also, I have a few customs rolls that are coming off thier sick period and I'm told they need to be dry boxed also.

It seems a shame to write off around 100 sitcks just because I made the mistake of buying 70% beads instead of 65% one when i set up my humis

[Skyfall]

1) ^ Yes , Dry box in fridge

2) Check the seal on your spare humidor, if you have kids, throw a diaper in there for a few days, your RH will be lowered dramatically.

[polarbear]

You could try dry boxing them in the refridgerator.

Thats what i've been doing of late

How long is too long to dry box in the fridge?

[canadianbeaver]

Thats what i've been doing of late

How long is too long to dry box in the fridge?

I think this is why I don't have this issue as much. I have a large wine fridge.

[polarbear]

I think this is why I don't have this issue as much. I have a large wine fridge.

So do I, 3 in fact but they're all filled with 70% beads

[Rufio]

I would also like to know about how long is optimal to dry box in the fridge.

The ambient humidity in my apartment is right around 55%-60% so would putting a cigar in an empty cigar box for 18 hours or so do the trick?

[HabanoHam]

An old empty box always does the trick for me. Usually 2 to 3 days in the dry box in the basement brings their RH down to a decent level. For really fresh custom rolls I'd say a week or so would do it.

[polarbear]

An old empty box always does the trick for me. Usually 2 to 3 days in the dry box in the basement brings their RH down to a decent level. For really fresh custom rolls I'd say a week or so would do it.

What is your ambient RH where you are though?

[ImTripN2]

I never did understand the term 'dry boxing' either and it seems like a misnomer to me because if the ambient humidty in your smoking envrionment is lower than your humi, why dry it out more? But if you are taking a cigar out of a regulated humidor and try to smoke it in a higher tempature / higher humidity environment, then I believe the solution is to let sit out long enough so it will acclimate to the ambient conditions before it is smoked.

In the States I live in an area with higher average RH than Miami, yet the average temperature is way lower, so just leaving a stick out for an hour or two does the trick on most days. Even though the RH is high, there just isn't a lot of water vapor in the air.

But even in a tropical locale like the Carribean or Malaysia cigars smoke just fine... but only if they are acclimated to the ambient conditions imho. Warm air holds more moisture, right? So a high humidity / high temperature situation with more mositure in the air it will take a lot more time for a cigar to acclimate when taken out of a controlled environment like a humidor. In Central America I have to leave the sticks I bring out on a shelf for 2-3 days before they even start to smoke decently, but after about a week, I get all the subtle flavors and consistent burn that I do in the Pacific Northwest. Anyway, that's what works for me.

[PigFish]

I am currently running a little experiment to explain dry boxing. I won't comment on the experiment until concluded, but I am looking to see just how much water content is removed from a cigar over a number of hours based on dryer ambient conditions. If it turns out to be worth writing about, I will write it up.

Going against much of the grain here (as usual) dry boxing is a strange practice (MHO)! Why not just store your cigars dryer? That is what I do. Don't get me wrong, I have recommended dry boxing to many. I have done so to convince them of the benefits of dryer storage.

So the question is this. If you have yourself convinced that cigars are better when dryer, why store them so wet?

I am a guy only interested in a consistent smoking experience. The best experiences come from tobacco that has been stored in a consistent 58 to 61rH @ 70F equilibrium environment. This is not a rule for all of mankind of course, just my personal taste. I can certainly stretch the lower number down to the 40's and still find the cigar a pleasure to smoke. The risk is in fines (broken or cracked wrapper and binder) killing the cigar. The tobacco itself is wonderful to smoke at that rH but you do risk killing the ability to smoke the cigar if the binder cracks.

Some have mentioned a refrigerator. Really… You want it in there with your turkey leftovers??? Anyone want to estimate the hysteresis of tobacco at <40dF? You are not going to move much water out of tobacco at that temperature, even if it is extremely dry in the refrigerator. At most you will dry the wrapper.

I have a humidor that I am about to rebuild. Perhaps as a little test I will cool it down into the 50's and really dry it out and test the theory. I am guessing, but I figure the loss of overall water content will be small single digit percentage in 48 to 72 hours. I will test it one of these days, but since I don't practice dry boxing, there has been little reason for me to waste my time on the experiment. My whole humidors are dry boxes!!!

If you are considering dry boxing, you might want to get a better understanding of tobacco as a hygroscopic substance. The fact is, even if the rH is high in your area, if you want to dry your cigar, you need to heat it up, not cool it down.

What do you know about rH and temperature? You know that the hotter the temp the more water vapor can be held in an open space above pure water. That is because the bonds of pure water are broken more easily by the higher energy state of the heated water. Heated water vapor does not want to bond or condense back to liquid water. The same holds true for tobacco. Tobacco losses water to the environment (space) more easily at higher temperatures.

Ask yourself this. What is flue cured tobacco? If cooling worked to strip water from tobacco would it be flame or flue cured, or cold cured? Ask a cigarette company. They certainly don't cold cure tobacco. Neither do the Cubans… Heat and ventilation are well known methods for drying and curing tobacco. No one that I know of cold cures.

So tobacco is the opposite of open space (call it air if you wish, but that is incorrect). The more you heat tobacco the more it wants to dehydrate, not hydrate! Why??? Because water, as in water vapor, can exist in higher concentrations at higher temperatures at a consistent rH. Don't believe me, download a psychrometric chart and read it for yourself.

This means that you should consider the cigar like liquid water and not water vapor. Liquid water turns to vapor more readily when heated. Water behaves consistently when bonded with tobacco. Heat it up and it wants to fly the coop!

So if heating tobacco dehydrates it at a constant rH, then what will cooling it do? I think you can guess.

I have told folks time and time again that ERH moisture content in tobacco is not linked solely to rH but to temperature as well.

If you wish to dry a cigar in a high rH environment, you need to hot box, not dry box when there is no dry environment to be found.

What do you have to lose, a cigar or two? Live in 70rH environment? Put a lightbulb in a box and heat it up to 80 or 90dF for a day or so and see if that works any magic. The theory is sound. I understand water vapor and tobacco relationships far better than most.

Have I done it? Nope!!! Don't need to. I keep my cigars in smoking condition at all times. I mean why keep an unloaded gun for protection? I won't. Why then keep a cigar to wet to smoke? I won't do that either!!

Thanks for reading. -the Pig

[PigFish]

I never did understand the term 'dry boxing' either and it seems like a misnomer to me because if the ambient humidty in your smoking envrionment is lower than your humi, why dry it out more? But if you are taking a cigar out of a regulated humidor and try to smoke it in a higher tempature / higher humidity environment, then I believe the solution is to let sit out long enough so it will acclimate to the ambient conditions before it is smoked.

In the States I live in an area with higher average RH than Miami, yet the average temperature is way lower, so just leaving a stick out for an hour or two does the trick on most days. Even though the RH is high, there just isn't a lot of water vapor in the air.

But even in a tropical locale like the Carribean or Malaysia cigars smoke just fine... but only if they are acclimated to the ambient conditions imho. Warm air holds more moisture, right? So a high humidity / high temperature situation with more mositure in the air it will take a lot more time for a cigar to acclimate when taken out of a controlled environment like a humidor. In Central America I have to leave the sticks I bring out on a shelf for 2-3 days before they even start to smoke decently, but after about a week, I get all the subtle flavors and consistent burn that I do in the Pacific Northwest. Anyway, that's what works for me.

I love this post!

What this gentleman has discovered is the relationship to heat and tobacco! Bravo!!!

Just what I have been writing… Want your high rH sticks to smoke better? Heat them up!

Hear, hear! Facts and science beats the old myths every time.

Cheers! -the Pig

[canadianbeaver]

Was hoping this thread would bring you out,, Ray. It's like setting out a plate of cookies for Santa.

L

[HabanoHam]

What is your ambient RH where you are though?

I'm in Michigan , right now the basement is a 63 degrees and ambient RH ranging from 62%-65% with the heat on

[Philprop]

So if had a humidor that was improperly seasoned and was likely over saturated and holding a high RH even with no humidification system, best way to dry it out and re season would be to probably open it up and sit down beside a heater for a day or two?

[Smallclub]

open it up and sit down beside a heater for a day or two?

this process may damage the veneer…

[PigFish]

So if had a humidor that was improperly seasoned and was likely over saturated and holding a high RH even with no humidification system, best way to dry it out and re season would be to probably open it up and sit down beside a heater for a day or two?

this process may damage the veneer…

Lets not get ahead of ourselves! I suggested heating two cigars!!!

Ask yourself, what is kiln dried wood? Wood, a hygroscopic substance acts just as any other, but according to its own isotherms, just like all others. Meaning, heating will dry your wood as well.

SC makes a valid point here. And it is an important one. Furniture is a often made of multiple wood species with grains running in different directions, all having differing coefficients for expansion due to heat and water content. Force humidifying and drying of laminate, and furniture can cause problems in not only the fit but the finish.

Again, the theory is sound and correct. They dry wood in kilns. Finished furniture however is far more susceptible to damage and deformation than rough wood in that the rough will be finished, after it is dried.

A fast study of your room and its ambient temp and humidity are called for. Simply opening the humidor to the outside may solve your high rH problem if the rooms ambient is lower. Heating the whole room, gently will accelerate the process. Shocking the furniture, like moving it from conditioned space to a warehouse has ruined good furniture and I don't wish to see you do that. Treat the problem slowly and within reason and you should be okay.

Please understand I am not suggesting that people put their desktop humidors in the oven to solve a problem. While it will likely solve the high rH problem, it will toast the humidor in the process!!

Cheers. -P

[Colt45]

I suggested heating two cigars!!!

Ray, I agree with storing at lower humidity to begin with if that's the end goal. Question - instead of using a fridge, would it be advisable to use an oven or microwave for a short time if needed?

[Dbone]

It was suggested some time ago, and I wanted to try it but haven't... toss the cigar in the freezer for 15-20 minutes before you light it up.

[canadianbeaver]

Ray, I still think that if the humidity is 70 inside and 70 outside, whatever you do is spinning wheels and spending money that is temporary. If we lived on the moon, or in Antarctica, this environment would be the same. Don't you agree that in a controlled environment like the permanent humidor/wineador it is easier to control the temperature and humidity and test the product than the exterior conditions such as a dry box or fridge?

I agree that taking on the air quality of a food fridge or freezer, except in the temporary case of check for larvae, is yucky.

Lastly, here in Canuckistan, winter weather suddenly causes a dryness in the wineador. Technical genius that we are, we took a glass of water and put it in there. Within 48 hours, the thing was back to where it should be.

[PigFish]

Ray, I agree with storing at lower humidity to begin with if that's the end goal. Question - instead of using a fridge, would it be advisable to use an oven or microwave for a short time if needed?

It was suggested some time ago, and I wanted to try it but haven't... toss the cigar in the freezer for 15-20 minutes before you light it up.

I don't believe in cigar refrigeration. Yes, I make wine cooler humidors!!!! What's the rub? The rub is, I live in an unstable environment. I have found a way to reasonably smooth my cigar destructive environment to a close to perfect cigar environment…

Why don't I like refrigeration? Much of this was explained above. When you cool tobacco, you lock water into it. With isosteric charts that I have posted here before, I have proof of that claim. The fact is, the ERH moisture content goes up in tobacco when you cool it. This is part of understanding that water bonds to the internal surfaces of tobacco. Those bonds are affected by the temperature of water. Water desires to become a free gas as temperature increases.

I don't know about the microwave idea, but hell I will try anything. I have in fact put a cigar in the microwave before just to see what happened. I believe I was trying to see if I could unplug a cigar with the approach. I don't remember the results. It depends on the plug of course. If it was earth shattering, I would have remembered. I know that I have written about it, but probably before this site existed. There were days when Wilkey, and some other cigar eggheads that we know, regularly used to talk about way out cigar theory. We did it all the time, but that was not on this site.

What I don't like about the microwave idea is that microwaves are not very precise and you never know exactly where your energy is going. Is it smoking hot in certain parts of your cigar while other areas remain cool? Microwaves are not known for even heating. I don't know the answer…

Controlled even heating is something I understand and can control. The problem with it is hysteresis and time. I don't think you can rush water vapor from the inner dwelling of a tightly bunched cigar. My solution is storing an ever ready to smoke cigar. As stated, I keep them dryer in the first place.

I am rapidly moving towards higher storage temperatures. Yes, beetle larva is a reality and that is the only reason I store close to 70dF. If it were not for beetles, I would not store that low.

Lots of people store at lower temps. They will give you all kinds of BS answers about it. You want to know the plain and simple truth about why they do it? They buy a wine cooler and the crappy controller that comes with it won't allow them to change it any higher! This is not the exclusive reason, but it is the most common reason. Look, I talk to a lot of folks about cigar storage off this site. I have a pretty good idea on what home builder humidor maker is doing and why.

Sure there are 50's and 60's storage mindset folks. If you asked them what the isosteric line of tobacco looks like in that area, keeping rH constant they will likely reply… What is an isosteric line?

It is not hard to find blind followers in this endeavor. I mean when you don't know yourself, the next best thing is emulate another that says he does! I represent one of those that says he does on almost all of these threads. My beliefs however are based on my research and own experiments. I am not attempting to emulate some guru who claims that his tobacco will be better than ever because he uses Feng shui to align his humidor. I have done a lot of study on the topic. I have a lot of reference material. Facts move me, guru myths don't! Facts bear themselves out in research. Way out aging potential driven theory is nothing but theory! It may be fact or farce, or any degree in between. I don't comment on aging theory because I think it is all a load of crap. The people who push it have large stocks of cigars that they love to have valued at exorbedent values. I believe the practice of rating 'aging potential' is built around the oldest motivation in the world. That motivation is selling cigars for more than they are really worth…!

Just my 3 cts. -the Pig

[Colt45]

I don't know about the microwave idea

My thought is to try it for an overly firm / tight draw at cold. Probably five to seven seconds at a time to keep from cooking. I'll also try the freezer for draw issues at some point as well. As always, thanks for the insight.

[sw15825]

I live in a fairly humid climate for 9 months out of the year. I agree with pig on the fact to store them where I like them. I resisted storing at lower RH for years, based on the myth of the 70/70 idea that most of us read about when we are new to this hobby. I lowered to 65% and later lowered further by swapping all beads to 60% in my coolers and keep temps between 68 and 70 F in my home. The more important factor in keeping my smokes stable for a better smoking experience is keeping the temp as stable as possible. The beads do the rest maintaining 60% + / - 2 %. Now, I am no scientist and don't know much about isoterics and water vapor or how temps affect this but do know from these adjustments, It works! My cigars smoke consistently better with the stability and conditions and are aging very nicely. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Just my two cents.