Already some Double Edmundo fakes...

[Strada]

Just spotted these on Montreal's Kijiji....

http://montreal.kiji...QAdIdZ529823466

[Cohiba Stevie]

Wow...

In only looking at these on an iphone screen but they actually look passable

[oliverdst]

The DOP band doesn't let any doubt about it. Oh, wait, he has, an uncle who works in the factory...

[CanuckSARTech]

Just spotted these on Montreal's Kijiji....

http://montreal.kiji...QAdIdZ529823466

Mine please. E-mail to Diana incoming.

[Hubba]

That didn't take long.......gotta love the old seal in the box routine.

[Strada]

Wow...

In only looking at these on an iphone screen but they actually look passable

Actually the ones I smoked had some silky smooth wrappers without a sign of veins unlike these...

[laficion]

[vitruvius]

If you Google search the phone number in this add you can actually find this guy's profesionnal profile. Now that is risky business.

[Ginseng]

Wow. Pretty par for the course as far as side-street counterfeits go.

Wilkey

[Puros Y Vino]

I saw a fresh box of these over the weekend. If this is a fake, they really went the distance. The inner flap is a nice touch. I'm thinking this is more of a "back door" sale. It makes more sense that an insider sneaks out a box or two before it gets tagged, sealed and entered into inventory officially rather than someone go through the process of replicating the box and sourcing fakes to be made, printing inserts and bands, etc. The $35 price tag is fishy though. And that might keep me away from it more than the actual box.

[stogieluver]

Help me out, here. The pictures are out of focus on my screen, so it is difficult for me to get a good look at these. But seeing what I'm seeing, with all the lables, overlap, etc. they would have fooled me. Looks like a very nice box. What, specifically, are you guys referring to in some of your general comments, such as the band, something in the box that's not supposed to be there, etc.

Just trying to further my education.

[Smallclub]

I'm thinking this is more of a "back door" sale.

Very unlikely. The seals and stickers inside the box are a signature of clandestine workshops who sell to tourists.

"Backdoor" boxes are legit boxes that are diverted from the normal circuit.

[oliverdst]

In my opinion if there were simply NO sticks inside the box they would look more legit.

Those will always tell me they are totally fake.

[riazp]

That didnt take long...

[Puros Y Vino]

Very unlikely. The seals and stickers inside the box are a signature of clandestine workshops who sell to tourists.

"Backdoor" boxes are legit boxes that are diverted from the normal circuit.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that a box can get lifted from a factory prior to it being tagged and having it's serial # registered in the database. Why just steal the seals, bands, inserts, etc and not the whole damn box that goes with it vs putting in half baked cigars, rebanding, etc. It makes no sense. It's a faster turnaround and more profitable to just steal the whole damn kit IMO.

Also, check out these Cohiba's. Look legit? Apparently they came back as the following:

• HOYO DE MONTERREY EPICURE No.1 SLB-UW-GPSR-M-n-25
  

• ROMEO Y JULIETA ROMEO No.2 D-C-C/P-3-A/T-15
  

(serials provided by the seller from a Craigslist post. Link is additional pictures from the post)

[Nino]

While the quality seems to be better than average from the fuzzy pics, the tell-tale sign of having the seals, inserts etc inside the box is a 99,99 % sure bet for getting fake cigars.

And 99,99 % of tourists or gullible amateurs will believe they're real and swear they're lucky ...

I've seen - and posted - better fakes that were still fakes by the smallest details ( wrong LE year, no triple cap, no code, sold at 40 CUC a box by the landlady or shady back-shop, etc ) or rare fakes like boxes of QdO.

The problem is these cigars go into the mainstream distribution via sales, transactions, give-aways and make a good experience bad for the interested "innocent" cigar smoker.

I believe we should know better here and not speculate on their 0,01 % chance of them being the real "Mc Fernandez".

My - very real - 3 Euro bill contribution :-)

[Puros Y Vino]

While the quality seems to be better than average from the fuzzy pics, the tell-tale sign of having the seals, inserts etc inside the box is a 99,99 % bet for getting fake cigars.

And 99,99 % of tourists or gullible amateurs will believe they're real and swear they're lucky ...

I've seen - and posted - better fakes that were still fakes by the smallest details ( wrong LE year, no triple cap, no code, sold at 40 CUC a box by the landlady or shady back-shop, etc ) or rare fakes like boxes of QdO.

The problem is these cigars go into the mainstream via sales, transactions, give-aways and make a good experience bad for the interested cigar smoker.

I believe we should know better here and not speculate on their 0,01 % chance of them being the real "McFernandez".

FTR. I don't advocate buying this box or anything that has all it's labels loose. I for one would not buy it. I do recall your post on fakes. It was an eye opener. And we can only "know better" by actually discussing the topic(s) at hand. We can learn more by asking questions and sharing information.

Back to this example. I mean, how hard would it be take a box from a factory prior to being labelled vs putting one together by sourcing similar cigars, stealing bands, inserts, Warranty Seals, Habanos seals, etc? And if the scam artist in this case had affixed the Habanos label and seals, who would even suspect it as a fake without the benefit of a serial # lookup? And if there is a larger operation at work in Cuba. Then why don't they affix the labels as well? It'd make them so much harder to spot than the real ones.

Let's go a different route shall we?

If I have a chance to steal a full case of 1950 Chateau Y'Quem Sauternes vs concocting my own labels, hunting down similar bottles, and filling them with cooking wine surely the theft route involves the least amount of effort and risk? Unless, I have the capabilities to do large volumes. Only then would it be worth it to counterfeit the goods.

[Smallclub]

I believe we should know better here and not speculate on their 0,01 % chance of them being the real "Mc Fernandez".

Exactly.

[Nino]

FTR. I don't advocate buying this box or anything that has all it's labels loose. I for one would not buy it. I do recall your post on fakes. It was an eye opener. And we can only "know better" by actually discussing the topic(s) at hand. We can learn more by asking questions and sharing information.

Back to this example. I mean, how hard would it be take a box from a factory prior to being labelled vs putting one together by sourcing similar cigars, stealing bands, inserts, Warranty Seals, Habanos seals, etc? And if the scam artist in this case had affixed the Habanos label and seals, who would even suspect it as a fake without the benefit of a serial # lookup? And if there is a larger operation at work in Cuba. Then why don't they affix the labels as well? It'd make them so much harder to spot than the real ones.

Let's go a different route shall we?

If I have a chance to steal a full case of 1950 Chateau Y'Quem Sauternes vs concocting my own labels, hunting down similar bottles, and filling them with cooking wine surely the theft route involves the least amount of effort and risk? Unless, I have the capabilities to do large volumes. Only then would it be worth it to counterfeit the goods.

Frank,

I was not suggesting you advocate a purchase of that box or that you'd buy it yourself. My apologies if that came over wrong.

The problem that I see and would like to address is that even on my posting of fake boxes many expressed their "admiration" ( for better word, maybe : pleasant surprise, bewilderment, incredulity ... ) at the wrappers, the overall quality, construction etc.,

I see a similar but less pronounced, "let's be positive" speculation here as well - as I see in many boards when fakes are shown like : hey, at least they're cheap, hey, they are Cuban so as long as they taste decent you're lucky, hey, I'll take them from you, hey as long as they are not banana leaves .... too many suckers wanting to believe that tap water is Bordeaux ( to stay with your Chateau d' Y analogy :-)

Now as a rule : Nobody sells a quality product for a tenth of its price, not here, not in Cuba.

There is a whole perfectly organized industry in Cuba faking boxes, labels, seals, irons and the corresponding cigars - plus the official receipts ( will see if I can find you the ARTE tv documentary on that ) - just like there is in SE Asia/China in faking watches, handbags, perfume, Viagra and jet aircraft spares ... and yes, vintage Bordeaux has also been faked :-)

Security in factories is tight, very tight. You may bring out a few cigars, a plastic bag full, you may get cigars offered for sale inside blatantly while the guards look away - but if you can bring out a box ( or many boxes ) then, why not bring them out with their seals, codes, all proper and dandy and make more money ?

Because we are talking 95% of the buyers have no clue and believe the tired funny tales, so why risk theft when there is a generalized fake industry already on site, besides - the "real" boxes from the factory would command a much higher price that, again, 95% of the suckers would not be willing to pay.

Frank - Let's make this topic a conversation theme next month with our local friends and have our eyes opened, I am sure it would be highly interesting.

Nino

[Nino]

Have tried to link the ARTE tv documentary ( Geo 360 : "Der Dreh mit den Havannas" ) but I cannot as it is not freely available.

It shows the organized industry behind the fake cigars in Cuba ( mostly HAV ), from the fake box factory to the bands, the code branding and the "private" rollers in Chinchales.

A former factory director I know well adds his opinions on the business model.

[Puros Y Vino]

Frank,

I was not suggesting you advocate a purchase of that box or that you'd buy it yourself. My apologies if that came over wrong.

The problem that I see and would like to address is that even on my posting of fake boxes many expressed their "admiration" ( for better word, maybe : pleasant surprise, bewilderment, incredulity ... ) at the wrappers, the overall quality, construction etc.,

I see a similar but less pronounced, "let's be positive" speculation here as well - as I see in many boards when fakes are shown like : hey, at least they're cheap, hey, they are Cuban so as long as they taste decent you're lucky, hey, I'll take them from you, hey as long as they are not banana leaves .... too many suckers wanting to believe that tap water is Bordeaux ( to stay with your Chateau d' Y analogy :-)

Now as a rule : Nobody sells a quality product for a tenth of its price, not here, not in Cuba.

There is a whole perfectly organized industry in Cuba faking boxes, labels, seals, irons and the corresponding cigars - plus the official receipts ( will see if I can find you the ARTE tv documentary on that ) - just like there is in SE Asia/China in faking watches, handbags, perfume, Viagra and jet aircraft spares ... and yes, vintage Bordeaux has also been faked :-)

Security in factories is tight, very tight. You may bring out a few cigars, a plastic bag full, you may get cigars offered for sale inside blatantly while the guards look away - but if you can bring out a box ( or many boxes ) then, why not bring them out with their seals, codes, all proper and dandy and make more money ?

Because we are talking 95% of the buyers have no clue and believe the tired funny tales, so why risk theft when there is a generalized fake industry already on site, besides - the "real" boxes from the factory would command a much higher price that, again, 95% of the suckers would not be willing to pay.

Frank - Let's make this topic a conversation theme next month with our local friends and have our eyes opened, I am sure it would be highly interesting.

Nino

Beautiful response Nino. I took no offense, so no issues there. I was shifting the topic to the logistics * motivations involved with counterfeiting CC's vs this particular box. Thought I did use it as an example and to spearhead further analysis. And yes, we're exactly a month away from Cuba as of today. This will definitely make for some interesting discussion. Personally, I'd rather say I don't know and ask questions vs acting like I know everything and anything to do with CC's. There's so much to learn still.

[Nino]

It has taken me almost 10 years of travelling there and lots of interest to get behind a few things in Cuba - and I'm still bloody learning :-)

Based on my experience in Cuba, I am still a baby ... learning to crawl

[Smallclub]

Have tried to link the ARTE tv documentary ( Geo 360 : "Der Dreh mit den Havannas" ) but I cannot as it is not freely available.

It shows the organized industry behind the fake cigars in Cuba ( mostly HAV ), from the fake box factory to the bands, the code branding and the "private" rollers in Chinchales.

I saw this documentary. I was surprised to see how laid back were these guys in the chinchales, when they face extremely severe punishments…

[jangoman88]

I have no real clue on fakes, but I thought Monti's had more of a maroon band to them, these to me and could just be my computer look to be black and red/white lettering? Unless they have different color bands for these normally

[Orion21]

$35 for 25 Habanos . . . enough said. I wouldn't buy those for my worst enemy for fear they wouldn't kill him and he'd come after me! So sleep safe ________