Cricket thread

[winelover]

As for Broad, I'm not sure we all think he's a tosser, I don't,

KP...now there's a tosser.

X2

KP believing he's an introvert etc WTF!! Also I read when England were sponsored by Jaguar all the squad had jags but he had to have something different - i.e. I am special etc. But we can all forget he's a tosser when he does his magic out there, to win a game by himself - e.g. was it his 156 or so in the last down under Ashes?

As for Broad never heard a bad word said about him from the home ranks as (i) he's English rather than one of our many overseas players, (ii) he's not half decent with the ball and is a capable batsman and (iii) he rubs up AUS the wrong way.

[Ken Gargett]

X2

KP believing he's an introvert etc WTF!! Also I read when England were sponsored by Jaguar all the squad had jags but he had to have something different - i.e. I am special etc. But we can all forget he's a tosser when he does his magic out there, to win a game by himself - e.g. was it his 156 or so in the last down under Ashes?

As for Broad never heard a bad word said about him from the home ranks as (i) he's English rather than one of our many overseas players, (ii) he's not half decent with the ball and is a capable batsman and (iii) he rubs up AUS the wrong way.

i think the 'being a good player' is different from 'being a tosser'. lots of players in all sorts of sports are both.

interested to get the views on broad from some of the poms. they contrast with what i am getting from my mates over there. almost every single one of my pommy mates detests the bloke and none have a good word for him. but very different from commenting on his undoubted ability. think how many people utterly detested McEnroe but no one doubts his ability.

good mate of mine played a number of tests for england not so long ago and is obviously well connected with the players (you'll forgive me if in the circumstances i don't name him). he does not have a good word for broad, as a person, and it was from him that i first heard that most of his teammates can't stand him. that was a couple of years ago so may be he has changed. certainly one of the things he led me to believe was that half the dressing room could not bring themselves to speak to him - but as david lloyd said the other night re clarke/watson, has anyone ever heard of a team where everyone got on all the time? so perhaps i'm getting one side of the story but certainly some tension there.

your description of broad above could apply to a player like botham - not to suggest that broad is as good as botham - but aussies loved him. still do. i think that one reason aussies are not so anti-kp as many poms is that both botham and kp have an attitude and playing style that we feel is very much like ours (or used to be before this useless lot), i think we see them almost as misplaced aussies - more like us than like the poms (i'm sure both would reject that but i think there is a lot in it).

[mazolaman]

Interesting reading.

Both the likes and dislikes are connected I think.

I think both Australia and England admire most hard working players, who let bat and ball do the talking.

And there is also a kick against the perception of cricket as snobby, as there have always been working class heros in the English team, from Botham to Trueman to Larwood...Most of the England side go about their business this way. I have no greater joy than watching Anderson run in for many overs, moving it both ways, and then being quick and sharp in the field. All of his skills have been achieved mostly by hard work.He and Swan like a laugh (and their podcasts are pretty funny), but when playing, they are straight team members.

So KP is the antethesis of this, he talks of himself in the third person, and loves to get his face in the frame when someone gets a wicket or a ton....Possibly I dislike most the fact that he is South African (nowt wrong with that) but, he ain't English.

I would rather he and Trott couldn't play for England, as they ain't English. I would Rather James Taylor be batting for Trott.

Some guys like Compton, were born in SA, but from English parents, and came here when they were young, as was Straus, it would be tight to call them anything but English, but the other two flew over for the chance of a game.

I guess this is a general view for sport I have, as I do not like the country hopping of talent.

I would rather loose with 11 Englishmen, then we would be forced to make our own talent..something we are steadily doing now.

I don't think you can put Botham and KP in the same persona;ity bracket...Botham was more "one of the boys", where KP is just a glamour puss. Interestingly, a firend of mine has met he and his wife, and said his wife was lovely, but he was a ***. Who do we believe regarding rumour and chit chat?

So you can have KP if you like, going on his current form, and batting nouse.

Does being liked mean you have to drink till you piss yourself with the lads? If you preffer to stay in, does this make you a tosser? Dunno.

Broads' father made him the cricketer he is, and part of that was not allowing the ECB get hold of him and ruin his talent, so he was formed apart from the system.

Back then, the ECB got players and almost tried to rebuild them, Broad senior said "you can piss off with that" and refused to let them do this to Stuart, which has been proved to be a good idea. Maybe this has made him a bit of an outsider?

Interstingly, the ECB did the smae with Anderson, they changed his action to prevent his head from turning on release...he then got injured and lost form...went back to his original action, all is well.

Interesting to hear Anderson's father being interviewed, much like we were saying about Agars' level up bringing, the same applies to Jimmy's family, just nice, polite folk.

Anyway, I was mostly sad that Rodgers got a stinker, as he seems to be the only one prepared to try and play test cricket. Hadden has tried to, but even Clarke had some wild swings...looks too hurried form both sides at times.

[Ken Gargett]

i think i am largely in agreement with that. the problem is that there is so much money involved now that the working class thing gone. not unlike soccer, and other sports, rugby included. idiots with way too much time, money, testosterone.

kp and botham similar as cricketers, for me, not people.

funny re meeting them and the view one gets. warnie is basically a yobbo who just happened to be a great bowler. but everyone who meets him is charmed beyond belief. i've heard it so many times.

mate from england bid on him in charity auction for an hour in the nets. for his son. my mate was not a fan but thought it would be fun and his son was very excited. warnie was horribly late. turned up with a *** hanging out. my mate was so pissed but from the moment he got there, he couldn't do enough. photos, autographs and stayed with the kid in the nets for hours. in fact, they had to leave, not warnie. my mate is now a huge fan.

i had an hour or two with him when he put out his wine - it was after play in an ashes game in brizzy. a mate arranged a meeting and we had a few drinks. he was brilliant. yacked away for ages. and was great with anyone who came up, from kids to families to women to drunks. tho as a keeper (and isn't haddin keeping poorly), i was a bit horrified as he was still pissed at gilchrist for missing a really tough chance a day and a half earlier.

he was also pissed at the ump for a howler when hussain was given not out (warne not the bowler) off a massive knick that everyone in the ground heard, bar said ump. when we batted, warnie had got around 70 but had got a similar decision when on 0 go his way. i reminded him of that and he looked at me and in the most serious voice imaginable, said, 'yeah, but i only just knicked mine'. he was a classic.

[mazolaman]

That's it summed up perfectly, cheers.

[winelover]

Need an overnight declaration and then two days to bowl them out. Makes no sense whatsoever to bat on just to indulge Joe Root as a 178 is impressive enough. He has plenty of time left in his career to rack up double tons. Well done to him though, hats off etc.

[mazolaman]

Need an overnight declaration and then two days to bowl them out. Makes no sense whatsoever to bat on just to indulge Joe Root as a 178 is impressive enough. He has plenty of time left in his career to rack up double tons. Well done to him though, hats off etc.

Well done to Root for a great knock, on a good track.

Some of his shots square and cover drives were beautiful.

I see what you mean, but the confidence gained for a young player to get a double centuary, and the further dispiriting of the opposition would be a good reason to continue.

Lots of time to bowl them out left, for the sake of an hour in the morning...

[Ken Gargett]

i have no problem with players not walking. i do have a problem with blokes claiming catches that didn't carry (especially) and batsmen refusing to accept a fieldsman's word (and morons as third umpires but that is hardly the players' fault). i have a far far lower opinion of bell this morning than i did yesterday.

i know ponting tried very hard for agreement between all teams to take the word of a fielder. it fell over because of the resistance he got from india and england.

england might win this 10-0 but they have done their reputation as as a sporting nation no good at all.

[frenchkiwi]

funny re meeting them and the view one gets. warnie is basically a yobbo who just happened to be a great bowler. but everyone who meets him is charmed beyond belief. i've heard it so many times.

thanks ken, i enjoyed this yarn about warne, captures the guy well

as a casual cricket fan, i watched quite a few cricket games just to watch Warne bowl. 2005? ashes was the highlight of this for me. the way he slowly set a trap for each batsman was hunting/stalking poetry in motion. and of course the charisma of the guy (bowling the odd yorker or bouncer in the middle of his spin overs lol)

[mazolaman]

Well, I still take the word of a fieder.

Englishmen always used to walk, others didn't, so we don't.

This is what technology leads to.

I genuinely prefered the time before, when mistakes were made, but all tended to even out.

So you still love Warne, even though he knew he knicked it but didn't walk, but Bell is a cheat for rellying on the tech for a descision on a tight catch?

"ahh, but that's different..."!

Anyway, isn't this the way of sport, when you're down, nothing goes your way....how many injustices did I witness while England dragged along the sea floor?

[Ken Gargett]

Well, I still take the word of a fieder.

Englishmen always used to walk, others didn't, so we don't.

This is what technology leads to.

I genuinely prefered the time before, when mistakes were made, but all tended to even out.

So you still love Warne, even though he knew he knicked it but didn't walk, but Bell is a cheat for rellying on the tech for a descision on a tight catch?

"ahh, but that's different..."!

i'm pleased to hear you would take the word of a fielder. so would i.

but, with respect, you do like to put words in other people's mouth. i never used the word 'cheat' in respect of this. nor was there the implication (interesting tho, that 'cheat' was your immediate conclusion). but he has shown his character. that is what my comments pertained to. and it wasn't good.

hughes did the reverse of it, a long way back (claiming a catch when it fell short) and i have a similar view of him. first bloke i ever saw do it was english keeper bob taylor. in that case, straight out cheat.

let's be honest, is there a bloke playing cricket at any level who has not joined an appeal where he didn't really think the batsman was out? it makes every single cricketer a cheat at some level, if that is the word you want to use.

technology didn't lead to bell's actions. it allowed him to get away with them.

with respect, two other points from your comments.

england has long had the extraordinary habit of, whenever accused of anything, immediately pointing the finger at others, to divert attention and somehow justify actions. as you have just done. go back a few years to broad being accused of tampering with the ball (confirmed by michael vaughan) and flowers' response. points at others, though didn't name them, as though that absolves broad of, and i'll happily use the word in this respect, cheating. interesting that it took just one test for possible ball tampering by england to rear its head. it seems to come up series after series. we've had hussein recently say that if any other country acted as did anderson and broad (again), england would call them cheats. always a misunderstanding?

the other is this extraordinary perception englishmen have that they are somehow the bastion of sportsmanship and honour in sport. what a load of crap. it is the most rose-coloured hypocritical rubbish imaginable. england is as bad as anyone else and worse than many. and before e 'divert attention', yes, they are not on their own. they just seem to think they are.

sportsmanship and cheating? we have seen everything from england, from bodyline to the first bloke convicted of ball tampering, michael atherton, the england captain. we've seen trescothick admit that fletcher and vaughan encouraged ball tampering in 2005, including the infamous mints rubbish. we've seen prior claim a bloke bowled when he deliberately knocked the bails off himself. we've had bob willis, yet anther england captain, accuse england of ball tampering. we saw the bell/sidebottom crap. i remember a few of us talking with bill lawry years ago, and he told us about when tv was minimal coverage at best, and how john snow used to grab batsmens' shirts as they tried to turn for a run or elbow them to put them off balance to try and have them run-out (lawry said he just elbowed him straight back and snow never did it to him again).

so please spare me the holier-than-thou crap. england is as bigger cheats and poor sports as any nation on the planet.

and i apologise but it simply would not be possible for me to express my view of your unbelievably ridiculous suggestion that england stopped walking because others did, without being really offensive. it is the most absurd thing i can remember hearing for a very long time.

best i sign off now before i say what i really think.

[mazolaman]

I don't really recall being "holier than thou". "Words in peoples mouth"?

"gamesmanship", "bending the rules", whichever euphamism, is really cheating.

I have no illusion about the sportsmanship, or levels of honesty in any team from any nation, including my own.

The crux of my point was that players will no doubt turn to the tech, even if they know the truth, to see if they can get away with it.

As you well know, modern sport is all about winning, not playing fair.

I know, even from my own teams, the levels that people are happy to cheat (bend the rules...however you would prefer to put it) to win.

If you like, I could post you links to acounts from epople like Alec Stuart, who was acustomed to walking, then going to play in Australia and being thoroughly bollocked for walking having nicked one...And I can recall watching England play many internationals over many years, and seeing all players walk. I don't agree with you acusation (via your examples given) that we are the world leaders in gamesmanship...having just done a simple search, I have dredged up examples of dodgy practices from lots of nations, including your own.

As for Bob Willis, dunno what he was on about, was there ever any proof or indication of what form this ball tampering took?

Is throwing the ball in on the bounce, or jelly babies in your spit ball tampering? Dunno. It affects the ball, so..

Is sledging cheating? As your players are renowned for spewing out out the vilest crap possible to get on top of a batsman. Including Mr Warne.

It's interesting and sad that we are talking about this subjective, pointless crap, and not congratulating Root on his beautifuly played innings, or the great form that Bell is in, or the fact that Anderson is surely the best bowler in the world, and Swan possibly the best spinner in the world.

Reminds me of Bradley Wiggins, who was clearly head and shoulders above all on a bike, being dogged by rumour of drugs, rather than celebrating his achievement. Froome is now getting the same treatment ( but he is not really English, another form of cheating)?

English sport is doing pretty well, in the right way. I hope Westwood finally wins one, which would add to a great period including a succesful Olympics.

I too have tried to be rational, rather than telling you what I really think of your rubbish.

[winelover]

I said Eng should gave declared overnight. 178 no and might have got a double ton much better than 180. Also we should be focused on finishing AUS off, minimising the risk of a draw and not further indulgences.

Anyway it is over now. Let's see what happens. Well done Root greating accomplishment.

[Ken Gargett]

seriously?

words in mouth? yes. and again, i did not say bell cheated. i said my post was about his character. for the record, and i'll type slowly, i don't think bell cheated. no matter how many times you say that is what i think, doesn't make it so.

i note you turned 'as bad as anyone else' into 'world leaders' - you don't see any difference? or you don't want to?

all of the stuff you say about the quality of various cricketers is entirely a different matter. my response was to your post. which i note you changed after i responded. and that changes the tone of things just a touch. my post had nothing whatsoever to do with things not going your way, despite your belated attempt to make it appear so. it as about character (in so many ways, now). but you allege 'injustices'. such as?

it didn't take long for you to prove my point about diversions. "including your own". yes. i said as much. i even gave examples. but it is the same old story. if we point at someone else, that must make it okay.

diversions? wiggins? what the hell has cycling got to do with this? i neither know nor care if he takes drugs. for what it is worth if you really are interested and i have no idea why you would be, that sport has been so tainted by its participants that i would probably assume he and everyone else, aussies included, do. but i could not care less. lost interest in that sport years ago.

as for the esoteric nonsense re ball tampering, are we to take it from your comments that you think that willis, hussein, vaughan, trescothick - all england captains - are wrong and you are right? or they are mistaken?

your comments about sledging would be a joke except you really seem to believe them. sure, aussies sledge. so do poms. and so do... you think botham was an angel? fred trueman? and the list goes on. as does the hypocrisy. or is the problem that warnie and his ilk did it better? no doubt that the aussies have copped just as vile as they have dished out.

dig out a history of cricket - the contention is that prior to the 1930's, not walking was effectively unheard of, but it crept into the game "via england". it seems that a number of the english professionals decided that walking cost them money so they stopped doing it. but i have said numerous times, i do not have a problem with people not walking.

i'd love to see the links to stewart walking. i couldn't find them. and i certainly don't remember him being any great walker. the only bloke i know of in modern times to regularly walk is adam gilchrist. i do know, from the botham and crew commentary the other night, that botham certainly gave his own team, presumably including stewart back then, a huge bollocking about walking - and told them in no uncertain terms that anyone walking would have to answer to him. perhaps that is the bollocking you mean?

and finally - "And I can recall watching England play many internationals over many years, and seeing all players walk."

i cannot imagine that you genuinely mean it. if so, that is simply delusional.

[Guest rob]

Cricket, like golf, have deep seeded traditions of honour and honesty - declaring self imposed penalties when one hasn't been called for you. There is something noble and beautiful about it.

Unfortunately, large sums of money, careers, fame and fortune have led to the slow demise of these traditions. Nobility and traditional values will be a thing of the past in years to come. Stories we will reminise over and recall the good ol days.

[winelover]

Cricket, like golf, have deep seeded traditions of honour and honesty - declaring self imposed penalties when one hasn't been called for you. There is something noble and beautiful about it.

Unfortunately, large sums of money, careers, fame and fortune have led to the slow demise of these traditions. Nobility and traditional values will be a thing of the past in years to come. Stories we will reminise over and recall the good ol days.

X2

And please can we all be more civil and courteous. Less sledge counter sledge retaliation pleaae. Cricket is a great game I am sure you have more in common than you disagree on, so let's not blow this up any further.

[mazolaman]

X2

And please can we all be more civil and courteous. Less sledge counter sledge retaliation pleaae. Cricket is a great game I am sure you have more in common than you disagree on, so let's not blow this up any further.

You're right Graham, Ken and I agree on lots of things, and not on others, but I still love him.

[Ken Gargett]

i do apologise if i have seemed discourteous. not intended. and i am aware that i can be perceived as that in writing (and person) but i assure you that if rob or any of my best mates had put forward something with which i disagreed, they would be told in exactly the same terms. if we were having this discussion on the balcony, and i would love that to be the case, the response/sentiments would be the same - but there is absolutely no animosity meant at all. i have huge rows with mates and them with me but that doesn't mean not mates or that there are any problems.

one of the great things about the forum is the different opinions and discussions - much more fun than all agreeing.

[mazolaman]

I agree heartily Ken, an no offence was ever taken by me anyway.

Likewise, if my posts caused offence, I apologise.

[mazolaman]

Well, England plyed well enough but not brilliantly, which makes it even worse for Australia, as even with 4 of our bats playing rubbish, we still ended up 3 hundred and odd ahead.

For me, Australia needs to put Clarke to no 2, in the hope that he and Rodgers can stay in, as Watson is a walking lbw at the mo, so Rodgers looks like he can never bed down with a partner, he's trying his best to hang around as players come and go. Maybe even Khawaja could join him at two, as he has the talent.

When does Warner get back?

At least Clarke got a few, unlike our own captain so far. One of those guys will score big.

The usual irony is that the Australian tail enders were showing them how to bat at the end.

It does look like there is a serious lack of morale in the team.

As for England, there are a few guys being carried at the mo, admittedly facing good Australian bowling, that need to get some runs.

Dunno who will come in for KP.

Credit to Root and Bell, who won us the match, and as usual to Anderson and Swan.

Root's innings was a class act, but more bats should have got more on a batters wicket.

[Ken Gargett]

I agree heartily Ken, an no offence was ever taken by me anyway.

Likewise, if my posts caused offence, I apologise.

no offence at all. be much more fun to have the discussion on the balcony but we'll have to make do with this cold hard forum.

[mazolaman]

Invitation accepted, one day I'll join you there.

Looks like we play each other for the next six months anyway, so I'll have plenty of chances!

[winelover]

Excellent piece here:

 Viewing on a mobile?  Today at the Ashes  EMBATTLED TOURISTS CAN STILL BUILD A CREDIBLE TEAM  Follow Telegraph Sport on Twitter  Second Test, day four: England (361 & 349/7d) beat Australia (128 & 235) by 347 runsAustralia's cricketers departed from Lord's in 2005 in much the same frame of mind as England's supporters last evening. The Ashes were in the urn, and the urn was in the bag. It only took one ball – one stray ball on the Edgbaston outfield, upon which Glenn McGrath trod – to undermine Australia's campaign of eight years ago. That is not to say that England will lose this series from 2-0 up, but that cricket hates hubris and the pendulum can suddenly swing.The margin of victory – England's second largest over Australia in terms of runs – should not be allowed to conceal the fact that England in both innings lost their first three wickets before reaching 30. To the rescue came Ian Bell and Joe Root, but such poor starts are overcome so seldom that only twice before had England won a Test from this position.Any Test team that can cut through their opponents' top order as Australia did at least have the basic requirement of penetrative pace bowling. What Michael Clarke and Darren Lehmann have to do is make the most of their remaining resources, not in the hope of winning this series but to build a credible side for the return series in Australia.England supporters predicting 5-0 this summer could bear in mind that Australia's Plan A has yet to fail. David Warner should have been opening the batting with Shane Watson, and can be expected to do so in the third Test at Old Trafford.It may not be a partnership that lasts for long periods, but it will have considerable impact while it does. Chris Rogers has to cure his tendency to look guilty when England appeal for lbw: he looks at the umpire, which invites him to raise his finger, then jumps back into position as if the rabbit-proof fence in Western Australia was designed to keep him out.But his first-class record suggests he can bat all day, like Root on Saturday or the matured Bell, and if he can do so Australia will become a competitive side.Usman Khawaja's calm half-century was oil on Australia's troubled waters and should have secured him a longer run than the usual three or four Tests he has been given before being dropped. However, his limited footwork and penchant for square-of-the-wicket strokes suggest he would be more suited to No 4, behind Rogers.Much time and faith has been invested in Phil Hughes, and he did contribute 81 not out at No 6 in the first Test to Australia's last-wicket stand of 163, but without ever looking as authoritative as Ashton Agar. Graeme Swann in particular is now tormenting Hughes, who has his twin strengths of cut and cover-drive, but little else besides.Hughes looks lopsided by comparison with Nic Maddinson, another left-hander from New South Wales who is younger at 22 and a stroke-maker all round the wicket. Maddinson featured only on Australia's A tour of England but when he scored 181 against Gloucestershire and batted alongside Hughes, one looked a Test batsman in the making and the other did not.Steve Smith may not be a Test-class batsman either, to judge by his wildness yesterday when he lapsed into his old habit of driving with a stiff front leg. But Australia will have to pick either him, Hughes or Ed Cowan for the rest of this series, and Smith's leg-break – when it lands – will be worth having at Old Trafford, which is likely to take even more spin than the other overly dry pitches of this series.Promising as Agar's batting is, he has taken only two wickets in his main role and has to be replaced by Nathan Lyon. While England have Swann and Root to aim into the footmarks created by the pace bowlers of both sides, Australia have been artless in having no off-spinner of their own.Smith is like so many England players of the 1990s: promoted to the Test side on the strength of being a decent bits-and-pieces cricketer in limited-overs formats. Australia's administrators are powerless to do anything about the Indian Premier League and the big money for T20 players, but they are culpable for having destroyed their traditional strengths and saturating their calendar with limited-overs quantity.They reduced the importance of the Sheffield Shield by renaming it the Pura Milk Cup. They introduced a convoluted one-day competition in which a state bats for 45 overs divided into two innings, and which again distracts batsmen from building an innings. Clarke and Lehmann have been left to assemble a ship from this wreckage, and no wonder it sinks.By Scyld Berry, at Lord's 

[mazolaman]

Interesting Graham, cheers.

My local side, Kendal, has Alex Doolan playing at the mo. A Tasmanian Australia A player who looks a bit tasty.

Looks to me like there is still some good young talent coming through for both teams.

[winelover]

Looks to me like there is still some good young talent coming through for both teams.

Agree. I am sure AUS will come good again not before too long, but that said, the backbone of our team is pretty young, so can't see us being dislodged in the medium term. Best to enjoy these times. I just hope that they keep playing test cricket. Also looking forward to playing India next summer, presumably without DRS. In some ways I like pre-DRS cricket, something more natural about it, and more purpose in having a good umpire, so I can see India's point of view. That said there must a huge sense of injustice as a batsman or bowler when the umpire makes an LBW or caught behind mistake, so on balance I think it is just about a good thing.