IcedCanuck Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 I thought this was a really good article and has information in it I was unaware of: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1e84gu/why_did_cuba_go_with_the_soviet_union_when_they/c9xr5hv Well, there are a couple things to address here. First, Cuba didn't so much "go with the Soviet Union" as go their own way, which ended up involving trade deals and decent relations with the Soviet Union. Second, what constitutes a "rich paradise" is very subjective. Cuba had a long history of colonialism. In Spanish hands for some 400 years, it saw the destruction (though not complete eradication) of its native population, the mass import of slaves, the creation of a sugar plantation economy, the closing of ranks of the colonial elite with Spain after the example of Haiti's Revolution, and the eventual severing of Spanish rule only for Cuba to become a virtual economic colony of the United States. With massive foreign investment and ownership of most major industries, and proscriptions for U.S. control over Cuban foreign and economic policy, pre-Revolutionary Cuba saw the growth of an economic elite and the stagnation and poverty of the average peasant. There was a somewhat democratic government, until former President Fulgencio Batista installed himself as a military dictator after an electoral defeat. His regime remained close with the United States. Hatred for the Batista regime was so great, that after the triumph of the Cuban Revolution, popular demand compelled the revolutionaries to implement a plan for the prosecution of Batista's "torture men" and "war criminals," modeled on the Nuremberg Trials. Che Guevara's duties of overseeing the execution of those sentenced to death earned him the name "The Butcher of La Cabaña" among pro-Batista Cuban expats, though enjoyed over 90% approval on the island. When the Cuban Revolution came, it had a broad coalition and a vague program, enjoying nearly unanimous support by the Cuban people. Fidel Castro was a nondescript socialist with nationalist tendencies, Che Guevara was a Marxist-Leninist, and Camilo Cienfuegos was an anarchist. In 1959, after three years of fighting, the Cuban Revolution triumphed at the beginning of the year. The United States took a hostile approach to the Cuban Revolution following the May 1959 agrarian reform program, crafted by Guevara, which restricted the size of private farms in Cuba to 3,333 acres. Cuba had not yet declared its revolution socialist or Marxist-Leninist, and the U.S. ambassador stated that Fidel Castro had no interest in international communism at the time. The United States, after consulting with large U.S. landholders, launched a covert war "to bring about the replacement of the Castro regime," by bombing Cuba and its sugar plantations. After the bombings, Cuba nationalized U.S. landholdings and corporations, and the U.S. responded with the famously botched Bay of Pigs invasion. After this, the 26th of July Movement (the revolutionary organization) merged with the Popular Socialist Party, eventually declaring a Marxist-Leninist program and becoming the Communist Party of Cuba. Initially, the Soviet Union was not impressed with Fidel Castro, considering him a bourgeois nationalist, and worried about what relationship he would have with the United States. However, after the hostilities with the U.S., relations warmed and a temporary sugar trade agreement was reached, which would be revised and continued for the rest of the USSR's existence. Cuba entered the Cold War with the Missile Crisis, following the failed U.S. invasion attempt, but its resolution disillusioned Castro and Guevara with the Soviet Union, which they saw as having used Cuba as a pawn. Relations continued, as did trade, but Cuba was never under the sway of the USSR like the Eastern Bloc countries. Indeed, during the Cold War, Fidel Castro spent several years as the chair of the Non-Aligned Movement. In place of the Cold War, Cuba was involved in its own struggle, against the United States, against colonial regimes, against multinational corporations, and against the Latin American right. Historian Tanya Harmer referred to this as the "Inter-American Cold War," though I'd call it something like "the Great Southern War," or really anything without "Cold War" in the name, to distance it from the geopolitical conflict between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. While the Soviet Union basically conceded Latin America as being firmly in the sphere of influence of the United States, and moved on to what it considered more fertile territory, Cuba was the main force in opposition to the U.S. in the Western Hemisphere, training and arming and supporting the revolutionary left, after Latin American leftists became largely disillusioned with parliamentary democracy following the 1973 Chilean coup d'état (against Cuban ally Salvador Allende), the latest in a line of U.S.-backed military coups against leftist democracies. Public views of Cuba tend to relegate it to satellite status in the Cold War. Not only was it officially non-aligned, its own international struggles outpaced the Soviet Union's in a number of ways. During the Cold War, Cuba had the second largest global military presence, behind the United States and ahead of the Soviet Union, despite having only around 3% of its population. As of around 2006, the tally was some 400,000 troops internationally deployed since the triumph of the 26th of July Movement. In addition to its Latin American activities, Cuba was very involved with supporting African revolutionaries, perhaps most notably in the Congo and Angola, though there was activity across the continent. Cuba also built the largest civilian (humanitarian and medical) aid program in the world, outpacing even the United Nations and the World Health Organizations, sending tens of thousands of doctors around the world. Even in recent years, Cuba has kept this up, with medical aid agreements with Venezuela (and one currently being negotiated with Brazil), and acting as a first responder to the Haitian Earthquake. Cuba was also the first country to send aid, in the form of 1,586 doctors and 26 tons of medicine, in the aftermath of Hurricane, but they were turned away by the United States government, which also rejected one million barrels of oil, two mobile hospitals, and $5 million from Hugo Chávez's Venezuela (which later managed to donate $2 million anyway through other channels). Ultimately, we cannot know how Cuban history would have been different had Che Guevara's influence not brought about that first land reform program. There have been a lot of successes for the Cuban people, including a universal medical care program, the highest literacy rate in the world, decent standards of living, a higher life expectancy than the United States, and at least more popular input in government than under Batista. There have been a lot of contradictions and failures, too, though, including the long period of repression of LGBT Cubans (which Fidel Castro publicly apologized and took the blame for in 2010) and a significant amount of criticisms of political repression (see an attack on and a defense of Cuba). Other things, like its tenacious resistance to U.S. influence and its general equality of citizens might be classed as positive or negative depending upon your views. It is important to note that many of the Cuban government's actions have been responses to the U.S. embargo, meant to strangle the Cuban people into desperation, in order to compel them to overthrow the government. The shortages in most every area caused by this embargo has necessitated a very planned economy, to stretch everything enough to provide for all citizens, and that has led to political repressions in order to preserve the system. Passing judgement on the Cuban Revolution, or thinking of it in simple terms, is not to be recommended. For lack of a better way to sum up a cursory review of the course of the system born of the 26th of July Movement, I'll end by quoting the Conclusion of Aviva Chomsky's A History of the Cuban Revolution (Wiley-Blackwell, 2011). I do not wish to sum up the Cuban revolutionary experience or cast an overarching judgement on it. The Revolution has been wildly audacious, experimental, and diverse. It has evolved under often averse circumstances. It created unprecedented socioeconomic equality, and showed the world that it is indeed possible for a poor, Third World country to feed, educate, and provide health care for its population. It fostered astonishing artistic and intellectual creativity, while also creating stifling bureaucracies and limits on freedoms that many in the United States take for granted. It also showed just how extraordinarily difficult it is to overcome economic underdevelopment. The history of the Cuban Revolution is still unfolding, and the most educated predictions have proven wrong again and again. I left Cuba in August, 2008 both optimistic and pessimistic, and mostly, curious, about what would happen in the coming years. One of the best things about studying the past, or a different country or culture, is how it can enable you to see things about your own reality in a different light. Usually we take our own historical context for granted. Until we are brought face to face with other possibilities, it's hard for us to even imagine that they exist. If we want to imagine a better world for all of us, I can think of no better place to start than by studying the Cuban Revolution.1 1 pp. 194-195
Orion21 Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Communism, plain and simple. The evil Capitalist pigs keeping it all for themselves and giving nothing back to the people. Funny how even more have nothing now and those in power continue to horde the spoils. . .
Puros Y Vino Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Communism, plain and simple. The evil Capitalist pigs keeping it all for themselves and giving nothing back to the people. Funny how even more have nothing now and those in power continue to horde the spoils. . . That seems to be the case with both ideologies.
Orion21 Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 We both do well in our Capitalist Pig societies Frank. Our lives would be VERY different if "La Revolution!" Had spread across the keys into North America. I will take our arrangement everyday of the week and twice on Sundays
Roanoke Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 I think what Bundwallah (Frank?) was trying to say is that both systems are vulnerable to abuse. Personally, I would agree with that sentiment, though I believe capitalist democracy is far more amenable to reform and prosecution of those abusers.
IcedCanuck Posted May 15, 2013 Author Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) I think what Bundwallah (Frank?) was trying to say is that both systems are vulnerable to abuse. Personally, I would agree with that sentiment, though I believe capitalist democracy is far more amenable to reform and prosecution of those abusers. Like the dirty corrupt US bankers and BAD WORDS EDITED on wallstreet who got away scotch free? Not only did they get away with it but the very same government put in place to protect people gave them a hall pass and bailed them out. How did this happen? Simply really, corruption corruption corruption and corruption. They should all be sitting in jail right now. I think it comes down to how much money you have. If you have enough money to spend buying your votes you can do just about anything. Political reform is necessary to fix that but when politicians can receive unlimited public donations it ain't never going to happen. I personally am unaware of any system where corruptions cannot and does not occur so on a higher level I agree with the sentiment as well. Edited May 15, 2013 by bundwallah Cleaning up the "wording" not the sentiment.
Puros Y Vino Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Like the dirty corrupt US bankers and EDITED on wallstreet who got away scotch free? Not only did they get away with it but the very same government put in place to protect people gave them a hall pass and bailed them out. How did this happen? Simply really, corruption corruption corruption and corruption. They should all be sitting in jail right now. I think it comes down to how much money you have. If you have enough money to spend buying your votes you can do just about anything. Political reform is necessary to fix that but when politicians can receive unlimited public donations it ain't never going to happen. I personally am unaware of any system where corruptions cannot and does not occur so on a higher level I agree with the sentiment as well. It all comes down to corruption. Many ideologies can be corrupted to serve the few over the many. Having been to Cuba recently, the class distinctions are obvious. Some had a lot, many had little. But oddly enough, both groups seemed "content". But that's a small slice of life during a week of "smoke and rum" colored glasses.
Troels Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Comparing Cuba to most other latin American countries, Cuba would be my choise if I were to be born and raised in one of them. Severe poverty, barbed wires around the houses and high crime rates is what Cuba should be compared to, not NYC and Miami with a wealth that is higher than most part of the world
Roanoke Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Like the dirty corrupt US bankers and BAD WORDS EDITED on wallstreet who got away scotch free? Not only did they get away with it but the very same government put in place to protect people gave them a hall pass and bailed them out. How did this happen? Simply really, corruption corruption corruption and corruption. They should all be sitting in jail right now. I think it comes down to how much money you have. If you have enough money to spend buying your votes you can do just about anything. Political reform is necessary to fix that but when politicians can receive unlimited public donations it ain't never going to happen. I personally am unaware of any system where corruptions cannot and does not occur so on a higher level I agree with the sentiment as well. I don't disagree - I said more amenable, not entirely amenable.
IcedCanuck Posted May 15, 2013 Author Posted May 15, 2013 Comparing Cuba to most other latin American countries, Cuba would be my choise if I were to be born and raised in one of them. Severe poverty, barbed wires around the houses and high crime rates is what Cuba should be compared to, not NYC and Miami with a wealth that is higher than most part of the world Definitely, comparing Cuba to the US would be like comparing the Congo to Europe ... not a fair comparison at all.
Roanoke Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Comparing Cuba to most other latin American countries, Cuba would be my choise if I were to be born and raised in one of them. Severe poverty, barbed wires around the houses and high crime rates is what Cuba should be compared to, not NYC and Miami with a wealth that is higher than most part of the world Interesting comparison there. I'm not really familiar with the day to day lives of Cubans, so I'll take your word that quality of life, political freedoms aside, is higher there. Have you been to Cuba?
Troels Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Interesting comparison there. I'm not really familiar with the day to day lives of Cubans, so I'll take your word that quality of life, political freedoms aside, is higher there. Have you been to Cuba? Been to Cuba once for few weeks, so my knowledge is limited, but I had the chance to get a little insight in the life of some of the cuban families by staying in casa particulares, and found people there to see hope, to feel secure and having options of choosing various ways of making a living. The regime suppres dissidents, there is obviously nepotism, coruption, a need for basic amenities etc. I dont know all latin American countries, but central America sure doesnt shine in comparison
Random Posted May 15, 2013 Posted May 15, 2013 Excellent article! You cannot and should not judge or evaluate Cuba by the US standards. You cannot compare it with Brazil either due to the size and economy power. But try to compare Cuba to the same size countries of Central and South America. Also, there is no way 80% of cuban population would live better and wealthier if they remain the colony of the USA.
ptrthgr8 Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 People can wax philosophic all they want. They can romanticize about a popular revolution all they want. It's fun. It's cute. But I only need to know how easy it is for an average person to voluntarily leave a nation to know whether or not it's a place in which I'd ever consider living. I've left the US many times. Never had to sneak out in a homemade raft under the cover of darkness to do it. So... Cheers, Greg Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
hiball99 Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 People can wax philosophic all they want. They can romanticize about a popular revolution all they want. It's fun. It's cute. But I only need to know how easy it is for an average person to voluntarily leave a nation to know whether or not it's a place in which I'd ever consider living. I've left the US many times. Never had to sneak out in a homemade raft under the cover of darkness to do it. So... Cheers, Greg Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD Ain't that truth
hiball99 Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Ain't that the truth I'd much rather be able to come and go ad i please.
AussieCanuck Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Interesting topic. Just waiting for the one person to go too far and then the thread being locked down !
AndrewNR Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Just checking to make sure there's none of that nasty political discussion going on here.. Carry on people!
khomeinist Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 People can wax philosophic all they want. They can romanticize about a popular revolution all they want. It's fun. It's cute. But I only need to know how easy it is for an average person to voluntarily leave a nation to know whether or not it's a place in which I'd ever consider living. I've left the US many times. Never had to sneak out in a homemade raft under the cover of darkness to do it. So... Cheers, Greg Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD Probably a useful intellectual exercise to separate the revolution from the political aftermath. Revolutionaries don't make the best democratic politicians, and vice versa. Cuban political history has very unfortunate aspects both pre- and post-revolution. I am not sure either is preferable nor that either has much to do with any sort of indictment on the 'Merican way of life.
ptrthgr8 Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Probably a useful intellectual exercise to separate the revolution from the political aftermath. Revolutionaries don't make the best democratic politicians, and vice versa. Cuban political history has very unfortunate aspects both pre- and post-revolution. I am not sure either is preferable nor that either has much to do with any sort of indictment on the 'Merican way of life. Completely fair on both counts. I'm inclined to say that the average US citizen is far better off than the average Cuban citizen, but that's also largely because I'm completely and admittedly biased when it comes to this matter. And, as others have pointed out, it's hardly an apple-to-apples comparison anyhow. Cheers, ~ Greg ~
Orion21 Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 If you are a poor person with no initiative and "happy" to live off of the State then which provides the most "free" "benefits" to be poor would do. . . But if I was a poor person with initiative and drive to do something with myself, which is seems many in Cuba are, the USA is a superior place to live. You can get a free education by succeeding in school and receiving scholarships You can start your own business and become anything you want. Look no further than Silicon Valley in California. With a computer science degree and some imagination you can go from living on food stamps as a kid to tech million/billionaire in a matter of years - not even decades. The VAST majority of my wealthy clients did not grow up wealthy and created a business or became a successful executive on their own initiative. In Cuba 99.99% of those people can't, not won't or don't want to, achieve type type of success or full fill those type of dreams. Up until recently they fear jail for trying to sell sun glasses on the street . . .
Bartolomeo Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Yes but how do the poor of each country fair? I would rather be the poorest in Cuba than anywhere in the USA. Just mo. You serious? Rather be the poorest person in Cuba rather than the poorest person anywhere in the USA?
Bartolomeo Posted May 17, 2013 Posted May 17, 2013 Yes. Free education and health care. More than can be said for many countries out there. Obviously the upward mobility is far greater in any "Western" country, but the poverty stricken individuals suffer far more in them than in Cuba imo. This is not based on any research or anything of the sort, just what I have seen in my limited experience. If I am way off base here, I have absolutely no problem being corrected. Yes Orion, like I said, the sky is the limit here and where you are as opposed to the severely limited opportunities in Cuba, but depending on one's definition of quality of life mixed with longevity of life, I feel that Cuba wins here. Also, when I say "poor", I do not mean people who live in low income housing and receive welfare cheques of $700/month. I mean those who have truly fallen through the large cracks in "the system" and who have nothing other than a raggedy old blanket and discarded cigarette butts picked off the street. Those people are not the ones who went to college to receive a computer science degree. Thanks for responding
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