New Habanos Launching - 2013

[Justmi]

Thanks ThatAlfonso and Pigfish, both good points.

I personally think that NCs do not compete with CCs. My friends and I consider NCs as interesting alternatives worth a smoke, but not in the same league. Look at any American cigar store website and its chock full of various brands. The NC market is so competitive, so the brands there need to do loads of bling bands and limited specials. The CC market, I don't think so. Its their own choice whether they go for higher profits over better quality. It is because of the intense competition and that AVIS number 2 status of never being able to say they are CCs that some NC companies like Padron go to great lengths for quality.

But I want everyone to raise their hand if they've opened a box of high volume cigars, say HdM Epi 2s or Monte 4s, and looked at that one of two mongrels in the bunch and think, "holy F, how did that pass quality control?" Or wonder how an industry can sell you a product that needs a year for the ammonia to fade rather than let them settle at the factory before shipping them out. Hell, in the whiskey industry they need to mellow their product for 12 years plus, but in the CC industry they ship out Boli PCs smelling of dried wee. Its like saying to the consumer, here, this is your issue. It is because of the lack of competition that it can get away with it. Look for the love in the product, and its mostly the higher end stuff.

I still love em though...

[LGC]

We can b!tch and moan all we want, but that won't change their marketing strategy. Things will continue in the direction we are heading, as long as people keep buying the crap that keeps coming out. The smokers of the world influence the industry, not just those on a handful of websites. Why use quality resources to roll a corona or panatela, when they can roll some 50 rg RE that will sell for 5 times the price? Let's face it, every RA cigar that they release seems to sell. Folks can't stand the thought that they may be missing out on some new cigar. So I can't blame them for pulling the small club (if the rumors are in fact true). Any Ramon LE or RE will have people standing in lines for their pre-orders. I've had this discussion many times with friends. Cigars are a luxury, not a necessity. As much as I love them, I have no problem giving them up if I reach my financial "breaking point." Everyone has their breaking point. I've seen many people come and go in this hobby. If smoking quality, Cuban cigars ends up being something that is solely marketed towards the elite and wealthy... then I'll just have to stick with spending money on fishing and booze

[cigarsdelcuba]

Please cite your source. Unless you can cite a credible source, this info is bullshit to me (except for the RA Imperiales Replica Antigua, which was announced earlier).

And there is already a "Connoisseur" in SLB 25 in the Upmann line…

I work in the industry. yes there is a connoisseur no.1. this will be the "connoisseur" made exclusivity as a LCH product.

[Justmi]

We can b!tch and moan all we want, but that won't change their marketing strategy. Things will continue in the direction we are heading, as long as people keep buying the crap that keeps coming out. The smokers of the world influence the industry, not just those on a handful of websites. Why use quality resources to roll a corona or panatela, when they can roll some 50 rg RE that will sell for 5 times the price? Let's face it, every RA cigar that they release seems to sell. Folks can't stand the thought that they may be missing out on some new cigar. So I can't blame them for pulling the small club (if the rumors are in fact true). Any Ramon LE or RE will have people standing in lines for their pre-orders. I've had this discussion many times with friends. Cigars are a luxury, not a necessity. As much as I love them, I have no problem giving them up if I reach my financial "breaking point." Everyone has their breaking point. I've seen many people come and go in this hobby. If smoking quality, Cuban cigars ends up being something that is solely marketed towards the elite and wealthy... then I'll just have to stick with spending money on fishing and booze

The thing about marketing to the elite is that it actually markets to the group under them. Like any other affordable luxury good, its expensive for what it is but affordable enough as an indulgement. I don't think people will give it up if it goes too far, we'll just buy less and stroke those cedar boxes more.

I think their actions show they are shaking things up to fuel constant interest and move the collector market along. Amongst the constant changes and shiny new vitolas coming out, people are overbuying and storing to not miss out on the latest must have. If they operated on a solid line of cigars only, people would store only what they need.

[Smallclub]

I work in the industry.

What industry? The industry of spreading rumors? You don't work for HSA or for an importer do you?

Anyway it doesn't prevent you to cite your source…

[PigFish]

The thing about marketing to the elite is that it actually markets to the group under them. Like any other affordable luxury good, its expensive for what it is but affordable enough as an indulgement. I don't think people will give it up if it goes too far, we'll just buy less and stroke those cedar boxes more.

I think their actions show they are shaking things up to fuel constant interest and move the collector market along. Amongst the constant changes and shiny new vitolas coming out, people are overbuying and storing to not miss out on the latest must have. If they operated on a solid line of cigars only, people would store only what they need.

No offense mate, we all have opinions, but how many large cigar holders do you know? This is a rhetorical question, not a pissing contest, nor a question to put you on the spot. I don't expect you to answer it. It reflects a perspective on a history of Habanos smokers! Where was the market without the EL? Frankly, far more robust than this one!!!

Your comment denies history, suggesting that this new Habanos paradigm will revolutionize the market. With declining sales... where is the proof? The proof is that less overall tobacco is being sold. Less cigars are being rolled and less rollers employed. That is my proof! Habanos is becoming a box and band company, not a cigar company... and I will bet that most of those boxes and bands are not made on Isla Cuba!

This site is frequented by fewer and fewer 'old timers.' Whether or not that is a good thing is not the issue. The issue is that Tabacuba as a company has moved away from a core clientele. There are less interesting cigars to smoke now. There are fewer cigars to start people and no defined path to mature. There is little hope for consistency and repetition without a strong core product line. People still buy cigars... yes! But the product line has shifted interest from purest, one with established taste for a specific product, to neophytes wanting a constant change of products.

People likely eat beef because they liked the previous experience. Coca Cola... the same. Your favorite whisky, the same. Adding product line is good. A decade ago I could rationalize the canceling of some products. History has now show that these folks are throwing darts at a catalogue, one taped on the backside of the loyal customer! At this rate, the NC brands will overtake the Habanos in short order. Where does that leave the worlds (debatably) best cigars?

Feel free to call them luxury products... They are bunched leaves of weeds!!! Does Porsche change its line every year. Does it cancel the 911 or make it a bellwether? Luxury products are consistenly great... that is why they demand the sales price. You have got to understand that. The proof is in the history and the reputation for being great, not for being pricey. Pricey might work for ladies handbags, but people who have lots of money don't keep it by buying great labels put on untested garbage! EL's are in fact not consistenly great. Many, big money cigar holders don't buy them in the quanaties that they bought regular production. Overall they have proven themselves to be untested, unreliable and not worth the money.

So it is Tabacubas plan to sell the smoker 6 boxs of EL's a year, instead of 50 regular production? 3 boxes out of the 6 are great so next year you wait longer to see and buy less. Soon you think they are expensive, untested and no better than regular production and are looking at NC brands... You call that a great way to run a company???

-Piggy

[CaptainQuintero]

Luxury products are consistenly great... that is why they demand the sales price. You have got to understand that. The proof is in the history and the reputation for being great, not for being pricey. Pricey might work for ladies handbags, but people who have lots of money don't keep it by buying great labels put on untested garbage!

Pigster you must be not watching the TV and checking out your local boutique stores enough!

People with more money than sense are the fastest growing consumer group out there! Have you seen the utter crap that get's huge price tags these days simply because of it having a certain logo or designer label on it! The best thing about the vast majority of all these gadgets and designer items that people fawn over and fight about which is the best is that they are all made in the same few factories and sweat shops in the Far East, it's so convenient for shipping!

I think you are seriously underestimating HSA! They know who their future consumers are and are going after them like a heat seaking missile! Just ask H&F for a tour of their best sellers!

[PigFish]

Pigster you must be not watching the TV and checking out your local boutique stores enough!

People with more money than sense are the fastest growing consumer group out there! Have you seen the utter crap that get's huge price tags these days simply because of it having a certain logo or designer label on it! The best thing about the vast majority of all these gadgets and designer items that people fawn over and fight about which is the best is that they are all made in the same few factories and sweat shops in the Far East, it's so convenient for shipping!

I think you are seriously underestimating HSA! They know who their future consumers are and are going after them like a heat seaking missile! Just ask H&F for a tour of their best sellers!

You are right mate... I am not at all affected by hype in advertising. Meaning... that I may try a product advertised but the mere display of other fools buying it will not be my deciding factor to buy, nor to buy again. Frankly, I believe little I see on TV. I live in the land of movie stars, I see the reality often, as well as the foreclosed estates. I ran into Nick Nolte the other day at Sears of all places. He was waving his hands and I asked my salesman to help, "the homeless guy, as he was looking agitated," before me. That is a quote by the way! He said that is not a homeless guy, it is Nick Nolte!!! -LOL We all had a laugh over it, including Nick Nolte!

These folks don't look, nor dress the way you see them on TV. Wayne Gretzky, Mick Fleetwood... Heather Locklear, look like regular folks out on the street. They may want you to think that they are using this stuff, but they don't! They get paid to look and act that way. David Murdock, Dole Pineapple, real estate mogul, Sherwood Country Club... that Murdock, dresses like a farm hand! As a kid I used to kill coyotes on one of his ranches. He flys a Bell helicopter, not because it is expensive, because it reliably serves his purposes.

I am not saying that luxury products don't sell. Of course they do! But you ever do business with a rich guy? They do anything but throw money away. There are stupid rich people that is for sure, but most don't stay that way by being stupid with their money. A hundred dollar cigar is not a luxury to a rich guy! A 20 year old $2000 dollar cigar, the ones you can't buy anymore is his luxury. Tabacuba then is not really even serviceing the rich. They appear to only be servicing the 'wanna'be rich.'

Ask your friends a H&F... are they selling more cigars now or 10 years ago? Would you even get a straight answer? First rule of salesmanship is, "the market is great." Ask a starving real estate agent how he is doing. He will always say he is doing great!!!

I have been smoking cigars for almost 30 years now. I have met a lot of people on boards like these who are certainly not going to make that grade. Today is wine, tomorrow it is cigars, next pipes, then dehydrated banana chips! How many of those trendy brands withstand the test of time? Levis... they are still around. Do they cut the 501...? Nope. When you see the moviestar what is he wearing; a $500 pair of jeans? Nope; a pair of 501's. Bellbottoms, hip-huggers, dipped to fit... come and go. 501... still a standard.

When a rich guys smokes cigarettes, is he having them custom made? Nope. He is smoking Camels or Marlburo or some other brand; the one with the reputation and the consistency.

I will leave this as we see things differently. You are likely a trend buyer where I am not. I reject trend over substance, but will move with the trend if it is in fact superior. You see yourself as the current market, therefore the future market. I see myself as the past market, with a track record and therefore the future market. We have different visions and different tastes! Not including either you, OR ME is a mistake. That is my argument. I argue a model of inclusive products. You argue that I am a disposable customer. We both make arguments, the trend is on your side. Your side is currently losing market share to the ex-pats. It is losing the interest of seasoned cigar smokers. I am one! I know many that are two and three... etcetera.

If I ran the Cuban tobacco monopoly, I would use capitalistic means to crush my competition, not to follow it, as Tabacuba does! Tabacuba follows because it is weak and suffers from lack of leadership. The ex-pats are not following the Cubans, the Cubans are following the ex-pats!

We shall see! I will be smoking cigars long after many of those speculating about it have moved their interest to other hobbies, maybe it will be banana chips next. The trend business is a fickle one. I don't see a future in it. I raise my glass to you if you do. Enjoy it while it lasts for you. If I am expendable after buying many thousands of Habanos cigars. So are you after buying far less EL's.

-the Pig

[Vortigan]

At the risk of repeating myself from earlier,sorry about that,I cannot by any stretch claim to be a Habanos old timer.But I believe without doubt that I'm a pretty good example of someone who's rapidly heading toward being squeezed out of the market entirely,I wonder how many others.

[CaptainQuintero]

-They appear to only be servicing the 'wanna'be rich.'

-Ask your friends a H&F... are they selling more cigars now or 10 years ago? Would you even get a straight answer? First rule of salesmanship is, "the market is great."

- If I am expendable after buying many thousands of Habanos cigars. So are you after buying far less EL's.

I agree with you on a lot of what you say, the first point about servicing the 'wannabe rich' I genuinely think that is the aim of HSA/BAT. The few people I know with real money don't spend much money! They go to a diner party, they wear their Grandfather's dinner jacket! They don't wear designer labels or fancy sunglasses etc. They buy long lasting quality. Those people I assume will always be able to get what they want cigar wise. But western culture is about aspiring to buy, people aspire to be seen as rich and successful. If they can buy a cigar which they think will make them appear rich/successful then they buy that over something plain looking and unbanded.

Just a glance at adverts on TV shows this; perfume from a movie star, watches from a golf star, sunglasses from a footballer etc that's just the way western companies target people if they are not a budget store.

Second point, H&F aren't selling much which they haven't been told to sell! They have stores of thousands of cigars that have been sitting around for a decade or more but they are the 'unfashionable' cigars like Sancho Panza Molinos. You won't find any large stores of REs or ELs because thats what they push onto retailers. H&F really have the most blatent 'target the wannabe rich' business strategy and although H&F do some great things and have some great individuals working for them, but that business strategy is unforgivable.

I don't know if you saw my posts a few weeks ago but I put forward the idea that HSA sees H&F as the wise old man of the cigar world and they should try to copy what they has established in the UK. ie 'elite' cigars for the 'elite' (You have to tell them that they are the elite when they have their new cigar!).

They are selling as many cigars as they did 20 years ago, but I would guess they are making similar is not more profits. $50 for a single gold foil wrapped RE makes a nice stack in their register!

Third point, I think we are all expendable in their eyes! I've only ever bought one box of EL; a ten count of the Cuaba 2008 so I'm not sure if I am a successful consumer for them! The good thing about their short sighted strategy is that H&F have an excess of goodies like Upmann, SLR, ERDM, Bolivar and Partagas Coronas/Grand Coronas/Lonsdales etc so maybe I am playing my little part buy buying their unwanted stock so they can make more room in their inventory for gold foil wrapped LEs!

I think HSA think they have the best product out there and that there will always be the consumer base for it out there so they can essentially do whatever they want.To a point it's true, it will only stop when people buy for quality instead of buying to appear successful.

No point taking bets on when western culture will change, Nero hasn't even tuned his limited edition gibson with black lacquer finish yet!

[Vortigan]

But western culture is about aspiring to buy, people aspire to be seen as rich and successful. If they can buy a cigar which they think will make them appear rich/successful then they buy that over something plain looking and unbanded.

Stating the obvious I know but it's a very sad day when that's the people that they're looking after.I'm sure a vastly overwhelming majority of Cuban cigar smokers are just like you,me and most everyone here,people with a passion for cigars who like to kick back in a comfortable seat and enjoy the rich variety of flavours from fine tobacco.

I for one have never smoked one outside of my own fence,let alone possessing or smoking them in order to be seen doing it so as to create another image.It's actually quite sad and somewhat disillusioning to see the way it's all developing.

[winelover]

Interesting to hear about the new sticks being launched and later back and forth!

I am firmly in the regular releases only camp, except for the odd single here and there out of curiosity. I would rather celebrate the diversity of the traditional lines and indulge in say a Lusitania that I've aged myself than some fancy super expensive LE. For me price point and value for money are key. In the same way I avoid ultra premium sticks such as Behikes and most Cohiba generally.

[Matt Day]

If so that is regrettable as I would suspect the reason why h and f has so many of these undesirable boxes is mainly due to the uk tax rate and the bad years of the early 2000s as after all who in their right mind is going to buy boxes at uk prices if they’re available cheaper elsewhere and from better years.

[PoohBore]

Perhaps the rise of this interweb wizardry and the grey market sellers has taken a lot of H&f sales of the normal production stuff?

I for one don't chase down the LE & Re because of the cost.

As for ammonia, it's been most noticeable on the nc's that I have bought or been gifted. Some so bad they reminded me of the ammonia drawing printer I had to use 25 years go !

[El Presidente]

I see all points here. Yet again I will ask members to discuss fervent opinion with passion but no angst toward other members. Respect peoples...respect.

My opinion for what it is worth is that HSA is akin to the Costa Concordia. Led poorly and currently beached. It can certainly be repaired and put on course for many years of great service. I just wouldn't let current management back on the bridge.

[Justmi]

I see all points here. Yet again I will ask members to discuss fervent opinion with passion but no angst toward other members. Respect peoples...respect.

My opinion for what it is worth is that HSA is akin to the Costa Concordia. Led poorly and currently beached. It can certainly be repaired and put on course for many years of great service. I just wouldn't let current management back on the bridge.

Prez, I probably started it with my musings of why HSA do what they do. Reading the other posts, I actually think we're all in agreement. I might have fanned the flames by fitting the HSA hat on my head and pondering why they do what they do and how it could make sense in their heads but does tarnish the quality of our old favorites.

[geneticdrifter]

I agree with Piggy, in that the do seem to be recklessly cutting the smokes that their base clientele has been smoking and buying for years. I can also see the marketing point made by a few others. My opinion is these larger RG are following the NC trend. For whatever reason the guy who buys singles when he plays poker or golf wants a 50 RG. Maybe it is a value play. They think they are getting more.

As for LE, RE's etc and their elevated price tag, I think they are just trying to keep their market share globally with perceived worth. A Ralph Lauren Polo obviously doesn't cost $80 but, if they were priced less the perceived quality would be lower. I would imagine the guys at Altadis, or whoever is in charge of marketing, are just trying to maintain the perception of exclusivity and quality with the higher price. People are shocked when I tell them I smoke CC on a regular basis that are <$10. They assume they must be fake because they are cheaper than many popular NC's; here's looking at you Drew Estate Liga Privada.

Finally, I would be interested in all of your thoughts on Asia; specifically China. As we all know this is a HUGE growing market and it is my understanding that they are smoking more than their share. Do they prefer the larger RG's? It seems to me they have the market share to push production towards their tastes. Can anyone comment on this?

Just my 2 cents...

[dan5974]

At the risk of repeating myself from earlier,sorry about that,I cannot by any stretch claim to be a Habanos old timer.But I believe without doubt that I'm a pretty good example of someone who's rapidly heading toward being squeezed out of the market entirely,I wonder how many others.

Exactly.I have more of a small smoke or thin ring preference.The fattest RG I like is 46.I just don't understand the marketing strategy of chopping a lot of tres petit smokes,then releasing HU half coronas & RG perlas(don't get me wrong,I like these new releases being a small smoke lover & already have a box of the HU).I see the jar is San Cristobal.I thought that brand was getting axed completely(I'm sure I read that somewhere.).I guess they'll wind up being an exclusive brand so they can charge more money.

[nikesupremedunk]

I prefer CC's over NC's because I like smaller RG's and NC's don't have smaller RG's that can match up against CC's. 38 to 48 is my preference but I'll smoke a 52 once in a while. If CC's start making bigger and bigger RG's like NC's and start charging 2-3x more than now, I might be forced to share my humi with some NC's.