Wine Cooler Humidor

[CanadianKodiak]

I've recently purchased a wine cooler to convert into a humidor as my collection of smokes has outgrown both my desktop and my coleman cooler. I mostly switched so I could control the temp which seemed to always be a little high in both my desktop and coolidor. I also like the idea of being able to drool over my collection while staring through the glass doors.

I've lined the wine cooler with spanish cedar and I've installed two fans to aid in air circulation. I also dropped a pound of 65% RH beads in the bottom. I'm able to keep my temperature between 16 - 18 celsius but the problem I've having now is wild RH fluctuations. When the compressor cuts in to cool down the ambient temperature it drops my RH to the high 40s. The humidity eventually rises and stabilizes at around 65 - 68 although I sometimes have spikes to 73%. Is there anything I can do to stop these huge fluctuations in humidity? Would more beads help at all? Do I need to upgrade to some type of a more automated humidity system? Any and all suggestions are welcome.

[nikesupremedunk]

First off, what size is your cooler? If you have a 28 count, a pound of bead concentrated in 1 spot may not be cutting it. I would say try to separate them into two 1/2 pounds, and then add another pound of crystal kitty litter and spread them around.

If that doesn't help, I would add custom cedar trays (assuming you have one of those 28 counts) as I think they really help trap the RH in and prevent from wild fluctuations. I have a small 12 count cooler and I was never able to figure out how to keep a stable RH when the fan goes off. Another problem I had was that the fan would be on more than it would be off since my ambient temp was so high. Sounds like your ambient temp isn't that high though, so if you really can't figure anything out, just take the plug out and leave it off. I pulled my plug about a month ago and I'm finally at peace. Stable 63-64% RH even though my temp is around 80-85, but they smoke better than ever. Stable RH is way more important than lower temperature with crazy RH swings.

[Guest rob]

I could be wrong.... But I don't think you can get tight, stable RH control with a compressor cooled fridge. One of the things a compressor type unit will do is dry the air out while it's running. Without some sort of significant humidifier / air sampling system in place to compensate for the 'drying' effect... I think you would be pushing runny turds up hill.

It's why thermoelectric fridges are so popular amongst cigar enthusiasts.

[almudawi]

I run a compressor driven winodor and it keeps a solid 70/70 (use it for long term storage with cigars in their boxes). The RH levels only drop to 65% for 1-2 mins every hour when the compressor kicks in.. Not a big deal in my case because I keep my cigars in their boxes intact.

My setup:

1- 1 and a half pounds of heartfelt beads

2- cigar oasis ultra II

3- 1 pound of cat litter

Hope this helps

[CanadianKodiak]

I'm not sure on what the bottle count is for the cooler. I've already chucked out the box. I do know it's interior is 3.6 cubic feet and a pound of beads is supposed to be good for 5 cubic feet.

I think the cedar lining is helping a bit so I'm also going to put in some Spanish cedar shelves.

I also forgot that I have a good sized chunk of humidity sheet in the house so I'm going to throw that in as well to see if it helps.

[PigFish]

Not all the beads in the world will counteract the forces of physics! Beads themselves obey a system called hysteresis, the phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it. There is in fact then an imbalance in the hysteresis of the evaporator coil (cooling plate) and the desiccant pack.

Wild swings are controlled by taking charge of your set points and by using an active humidifier along with your cooler. Cycle times, circulation and design will all play a part.

A small TE cooler will strip water from the air just like a compressor cooler. It is called dew point, it is a law of nature and psychrometrics and is set in stone! Most people don't realize it because they use slow reacting low resolution instruments and claim that their system is "rock solid." Horse pucky! I have managed to work rH cycling down to a few rH. And since the isotherms of tobacco and air are different, and there is a greater change of system water with a temperature swing than an rH swing (at a given temperature), temperature changes are harder on stable environments than varying rH when water vapor is concerned. Here is an example. There are approximately 78 grains of water/pound of dry air at 70 rH and 70 dF. If you sample around that number there is 66 grains of water/pound air in 70 dF air at 60 rH and 54 grains of water in air at 60 dF and 70 rH. If you don't want to do the math this means that fluctuations of temperature are harder on your cigars, for the purpose of stable smoking conditions, than fluctuations in rH. There are hysterisis factors for cigars (tobacco) at play as well.

So you need to focus on what science, and experience, tells you about cigar storage and build your humidor project around that.

Here is what a well controlled and designed humidor does.

This data log shows the heat of the day at Piggy Labs (CigarClimatology).

Notice the heat line (red). Notice the rH changes around the set point of 59 rH. The fluctuations are very small, while I have purposely emphasized them in this snapshot. I believe that with better humidor design I can actually better this and I work on it everyday! I now consider this level of control standard, and still see it as crude. Only time will tell if I can better the design.

[CanadianKodiak]

I hate to resurrect a dead post but this damned wine cooler is driving me nuts. I've recently been noticing split feet on some of my cigars and I can't help but wonder if it's due to the wild humidity fluctuations I'm still getting.

I've replaced my RH beads with a Cigar Oasis XL and although the humidity now recovers faster after the compressor kicks in it still drops down to an unacceptable level...sometimes as low as 50. Its back up to 65-70 in a matter of 10 minutes or so.

If I drop in another Cigar Oasis do you think the two of them together can pump out humidity faster than the compressor can dry it out? I also have two bags of beads and some sheets...if I throw those into the mix will that help? I've got 4 more boxes on order and I'd like to have a nice home for them

Gracias amigos

[PigFish]

... better control over your cooler is the best answer!

I am a stablity fanatic, okay, but I cannot see that you are actually doing damage to your cigars by having their rH drop to the 50's or 40's for awhile. While I sell cigar climatology products and it serves me to encourage more stable environments, I believe attempting to convince people that they are ruining their cigars by these rH fluctuations for short periods would be downright dishonest. A simple door opening on a humidor with passive humidity products can strip the rH out of a humidor for hours, not minutes.... HOURS! I intend on demonstrating this by the way, just not today!

No one treats there cigars as well as the typical concerned enthusiast. And while I don't know the actual long term effect, like you I am only guessing and believing that the more stable the better, I would be hard pressed to suggest that your cooler is ruining your cigar. I am in the "treat your cigars better" business. Not in the scare you into thinking that you are ruining them business!!! You have to separate myth and fear into facts and odds!

The split feet can be from many things and I am not going to speculate that here. However I do know a little about tobacco isothermal behavior and typically you have to heat the tobacco to a significant temperature to get it to transfer water that fast.

If I had to guess, I might say that you are actually drying your humidor (as in the average) by these fluctuations. You have a number of solutions, theoretical of course!

I would start by ceasing to attempt to refrigerate your cigars. Cigars do not need to kept below 70 dF (MHO). While the risk for biologics always exists, I prefer high 60's to mid 70's. In this we reduce the delta on the internal verses external environment. This means that the cooler runs less, and you are in for fewer cycles. You do this via better control on your humidor. Circulation and homogenization of the air and water vapor in you humidor also helps avoid the dry spots.

Next, if you are up for the task, the replacement of the crude controls that are included with a wine cooler to that of a logic controller and a good environmental sensor will potentially help. This is not cheap nor for the faint of heart. It can require considerable rework on your cooler, at least the way I do it.... but the results are much better! (more stable).

Buying another oasis, while it might work, will likely over humidify your cigars in the long run. I try to keep the amount of liquid water to the very minimum in my humidors, but that is my design preference. I also do not like passive systems and don't really believe in them for cigar storage where the storage is opened on a regular basis, or if it has an active cooling system. The caveat here is that active humidor control is my niche. I make money convincing people that my way is better... I have to make that perfectly clear in my discussions!

Cheers, and best of luck on your project. -the Pig

Edit:

I left out a really pertinent point. Keeping your cigars in boxes makes their average living conditions a lot more stable. If you were to data log the internal of one of your boxes during this process, you might well see a fluctuation in temperature in the log, but very little in rH. I will prove this to you if you like, when I have time.

[CanadianKodiak]

Thanks for the help PigFish. What I did was move the wine cooler into a room in the basement that currently has an ambient temp of around 15 degrees celsius. Now the compressor doesn't have to kick in at all. I'm hoping that'll help fix the problem. Somewhere in the future I'm going to buy a thermoelectric wine cooler for my next humidor. I hear they work better.

[PigFish]

Thanks for the help PigFish. What I did was move the wine cooler into a room in the basement that currently has an ambient temp of around 15 degrees celsius. Now the compressor doesn't have to kick in at all. I'm hoping that'll help fix the problem. Somewhere in the future I'm going to buy a thermoelectric wine cooler for my next humidor. I hear they work better.

TE coolers are the worst! While I will never say never, they are inefficient and I don't use them. You have a controls problem mate, and likely some design issues. This is not the fault of your refrigeration system, it is the fault of the way the system is being applied.

Cheers! -Piggy

[CanadianKodiak]

Lol! Ok, sounds like a TE cooler isn't any good. Btw, the new location has solved all my problems for the time being. Seems to be holding a steady 16/65 for me now. Gonna have to work on a better setup for the future, though.