"Can't Touch This"

[spivy]

I would smoke everything that I have. But there are a couple that i would not smoke regularly.

NIUL (Dec 1985) Hoyo Epicure No.2 that I smoke once a year on my birthday, I was born December 85.

1990 & 1991 Cohiba Robusto Boxes - Have not cracked them yet, and always want to. Might crack the 1991 because I just got another one

1981 JJ Fox Centenary Humidor (Fox Selection H Upmann Sir Winston) - Just so special to crack even though I have more then 1

[mk05]

More than the Santa Felipa? More than 1 equals enough for me to mooch. I can def help on the JJF humi. I am only a T stop away you know.

[spivy]

More than the Santa Felipa? More than 1 equals enough for me to mooch. I can def help on the JJF humi. I am only a T stop away you know.

I do not contribute to the demise of our society by enabling mooching

[ramon_cojones]

right on cue

[mk05]

I do not contribute to the demise of our society by enabling mooching

Enable me dammit. LOL

For the internet people, these are just jokes here fyi...OK back to fun.

[mk05]

Right. I've found that when I write in detail, either people's eyes glaze over (I'm imagining) or they read it as definitive. It's not really. Solutions are really only "best" in the sense of meeting your set of operational and aesthetic needs. For example, I'd love to have and use Nino's steel coffins, but it wouldn't fly practically for a number of reasons.

Wilkey

Well I was fascinated with glassine for a long time, and how people just use Saran wrap with zip lock over it.

I did read your posts thoroughly again recently to read up on the whole wax/unwax/glassine, and you didnt go into foil very much. It is economical and arguably does the job better. Thanks, I'll be using the foil.

[Ginseng]

Wilkey... I love you brother!

I have three thoughts on the matter. I miss the heady days of our intellectual masturbation on theoretical cigar science! Forget the empathy for the glossy-eyed, they have some excuse to overlook anything resembling cognizant and cogent writing, and never, I mean never... tell a pilot his won't fly... -LOL

Cheers. -R

I hear you. Once upon a time...well, that was a different time. The interest and fascination are still there. Just not always the time or the energy. There is a place for our particular brand of insanity. And there always should be.

Wilkey

[Hugomarink]

I have two Cuban Davidoff #2s from a five-pack I got in 1998 when I was an editor at SMOKE Magazine. I know the Davi #2 fivers were mass-produced and considered to be a fairly middling smoke compared to the really fine Cuban Davidoffs, and that they are likely well past their prime by now, but for whatever reason I can't seem to find the right time to smoke these last two.

[Charltonc]

RASS from a fifty cab 04, SLR serie A's from 01, SLR double coronas from 01, and Diplomatico #2 from 01.

[Ginseng]

Well I was fascinated with glassine for a long time, and how people just use Saran wrap with zip lock over it.

I did read your posts thoroughly again recently to read up on the whole wax/unwax/glassine, and you didnt go into foil very much. It is economical and arguably does the job better. Thanks, I'll be using the foil.

Ah. I recall the contexts of those discussions were generally centered around the paper internal to the package/container. It's been many decades since boxes were wrapped externally in paper. The last I encountered were a few boxes of 1970's Montecristo Tubos with an outer glassine wrap. Curiously, some counterfeits came with waxed paper inside where normally glassine is found.

Discussions about external wrapping for aging rate reduction usually focused on zippered food storage bags and the like. Since one of the most prominent and outspoken big wheel collectors espouses the use of zipper bags, plenty of folks consider the case closed. But as I also recall writing, the selection of a aging control system depends on the time horizon over which one intends to consume the cigars. Consider the following graph as an illustration of this concept.

The horizontal, X-axis, is the number of years after manufacture until the cigar is smoked. Zero is "right off the truck" or ROTT. The scale goes to 100 years but that's really just intended to mean "a long time." But the oldest smokable cigars I've read about are about century in age, give or take a decade, so that's probably a reasonable upper limit.

The vertical, Y-axis, is the percentage loss of an abstract quantity that we'll call "smoking quality" or SQ. For the purposes of this illustration, I'm purposely ignoring maturation, development of complexity, and the "muted phase" to simplify the example. In other words, quality degradation over the long term is considered to be monotonic: it always and only decreases.

You can imagine the RED line to represent what happens to an unprotected cigar over time. No foil, no ziploc. Just the box it came in and some reasonable humidor or storage chamber. The decline in SQ is rapid and extreme. Expiration occurs in just a decade or two.

The ORANGE line represents a box kept in some form of plastic wrap or baggie. The decline is more gentle and perhaps still might not have zeroed out at a century as I've shown here.

The GREEN line traces the loss curve for a box stored in an effectively impermeable container such as a jar, tin, or metal chest. Acting as a time capsule and essentially preventing the ingress of oxygen and the exhalation of oxidation products, development and decline is slowed to a crawl. Still, anaerobic processes (reactions that do not require the presence of oxygen) can take place and sealing is never absolute so some change occurs. Time stands still, mostly.

So, I have two points.

First, the SQ curve is an abstract that doesn't really reflect reality. A young cigar might not be enjoyable due to harshness, ammonia, or tannins. So SQ might actually start at, say 80, and then increase and peak at 90% after a few years. And then there's the secondary development of complexity, so you might reach another peak at the ultimate 100% in a dozen years. And then the true monotonic decline doesn't actually start until two decades out. Another complicating factor is that the SQ is qualitative. As a result, its very definition is subject to debate. How its components are valued (i.e., punchiness, silkiness, concurrent complexity) is a function of one's taste and preference.

Second, this concept in general can help one figure out how to design the right system to suit one's taste and the way one smokes. For example, if I like punchy cigars and I smoke 10-20 cigars a week, then I sure wouldn't worry about glassine, ziplocs, jars or any other stuff like that. Rate of consumption is high, with a modest inventory, turnover is rapid, so my strategy would be to order 'em, stick 'em in a humi, smoke 'em, repeat.

Alternatively, if I smoke infrequently, hold a massive inventory, and prefer mature cigars, I might put more value in slowing down the maturation of cigars I buy so that when I crack my next new cab in 25 years, they'll have gotten past all the impetuousness of youth and finally be at their peak and "ready to smoke." And my expectation would be that decline would not begin to be an issue until my grandchildren are ready to inherit my collection.

Of course, one has to take into account important factors. Like for example, how much stock can you afford stock, average age of cigar smoked, etc. Ultimately, it is a qualitative sensory goal that can be managed through engineering means.

Wilkey

[mk05]

And we're back! Wiley, I will respond properly after I have enough time to examine your post. Thank you for your thoughts.

[PigFish]

Ah. I recall the contexts of those discussions were generally centered around the paper internal to the package/container. It's been many decades since boxes were wrapped externally in paper. The last I encountered were a few boxes of 1970's Montecristo Tubos with an outer glassine wrap. Curiously, some counterfeits came with waxed paper inside where normally glassine is found.

Discussions about external wrapping for aging rate reduction usually focused on zippered food storage bags and the like. Since one of the most prominent and outspoken big wheel collectors espouses the use of zipper bags, plenty of folks consider the case closed. But as I also recall writing, the selection of a aging control system depends on the time horizon over which one intends to consume the cigars. Consider the following graph as an illustration of this concept.

The horizontal, X-axis, is the number of years after manufacture until the cigar is smoked. Zero is "right off the truck" or ROTT. The scale goes to 100 years but that's really just intended to mean "a long time." But the oldest smokable cigars I've read about are about century in age, give or take a decade, so that's probably a reasonable upper limit.

The vertical, Y-axis, is the percentage loss of an abstract quantity that we'll call "smoking quality" or SQ. For the purposes of this illustration, I'm purposely ignoring maturation, development of complexity, and the "muted phase" to simplify the example. In other words, quality degradation over the long term is considered to be monotonic: it always and only decreases.

You can imagine the RED line to represent what happens to an unprotected cigar over time. No foil, no ziploc. Just the box it came in and some reasonable humidor or storage chamber. The decline in SQ is rapid and extreme. Expiration occurs in just a decade or two.

The ORANGE line represents a box kept in some form of plastic wrap or baggie. The decline is more gentle and perhaps still might not have zeroed out at a century as I've shown here.

The GREEN line traces the loss curve for a box stored in an effectively impermeable container such as a jar, tin, or metal chest. Acting as a time capsule and essentially preventing the ingress of oxygen and the exhalation of oxidation products, development and decline is slowed to a crawl. Still, anaerobic processes (reactions that do not require the presence of oxygen) can take place and sealing is never absolute so some change occurs. Time stands still, mostly.

So, I have two points.

First, the SQ curve is an abstract that doesn't really reflect reality. A young cigar might not be enjoyable due to harshness, ammonia, or tannins. So SQ might actually start at, say 80, and then increase and peak at 90% after a few years. And then there's the secondary development of complexity, so you might reach another peak at the ultimate 100% in a dozen years. And then the true monotonic decline doesn't actually start until two decades out. Another complicating factor is that the SQ is qualitative. As a result, its very definition is subject to debate. How its components are valued (i.e., punchiness, silkiness, concurrent complexity) is a function of one's taste and preference.

Second, this concept in general can help one figure out how to design the right system to suit one's taste and the way one smokes. For example, if I like punchy cigars and I smoke 10-20 cigars a week, then I sure wouldn't worry about glassine, ziplocs, jars or any other stuff like that. Rate of consumption is high, with a modest inventory, turnover is rapid, so my strategy would be to order 'em, stick 'em in a humi, smoke 'em, repeat.

Alternatively, if I smoke infrequently, hold a massive inventory, and prefer mature cigars, I might put more value in slowing down the maturation of cigars I buy so that when I crack my next new cab in 25 years, they'll have gotten past all the impetuousness of youth and finally be at their peak and "ready to smoke." And my expectation would be that decline would not begin to be an issue until my grandchildren are ready to inherit my collection.

Of course, one has to take into account important factors. Like for example, how much stock can you afford stock, average age of cigar smoked, etc. Ultimately, it is a qualitative sensory goal that can be managed through engineering means.

Wilkey

... as I read this...my eyes glaze over (I'm imagining) and it sounds really definitive...!!! -LOL

Cheers, my friend. -R

[Ginseng]

... as I read this...my eyes glaze over (I'm imagining) and it sounds really definitive...!!! -LOL

Cheers, my friend. -R

How true.

You know I write just to noodle things through. Must be some mess 'o noodles in the noggin.

Wilkey

[LGC]

My uneducated hypothesis leads me to believe that the manner in which I store my cigar provides a slower rate of decay (or aging) than a traditional humidor. Since I don't have the money to spend on a fancy humidor, all of my stuff is stored in coolers. I keep everything in original boxes. Since I only open my coolers once or twice a week, the air exchange is minimal (in comparison with a wood humidor). This is evident by the fact that I only add distilled water to them once or twice a year. Although, this is not quite as efficient as using Niño's method, or your aluminum foil wrapping. Anyways, I'm too lazy to worry about storing cigars for decades before smoking. Also, it's impractical to perform experiments on cigars under controlled environmental conditions without expending a lot of time and effort. There's also too many variables with personal tastes, blend qualities, etc, etc. In the mean time, I'll just continue smoking cigars that might be over the hill, too young, just right, or taste like Igloo plastic.

[PigFish]

I say I am not a collector... and that is true. It is not that I am implying that there is something wrong with collecting, for collecting sake, I am just saying it is a party that I am, generally speaking, not a part of!

In all honesty however that does not mean that I don't have my fetishes a quirks! Like Wilkey here, I am a data *****(read ***** as another word for prostitute)! I am a philosophy *****, and experiment ***** and a theoretical *****!!!

I have no room to criticize collecting whores!!! I am every bit as hung up... just on a different facet of the 'sport.' Some people must try to find a 'perfect cigar.' I look for a prefect environment! There is not really much difference when you look at it from the perspective of the "hunt." Some of us are hunters, looking for what is elusive to ourselves and perhaps others, and some are not.

Cigars are brainless! I have created a world for myself were they interest me beyond that of taste. I rationalize my interest as a factor of taste, but I cannot prove it. Pondering and thinking, exploring and experimenting is what I do for fun. Sharing it with others is also what I do for fun! When you think about that, it may vary well seem a bit odd. Odd... like paying a bunch for tube of bunched weeds, rolled some decades ago that you fondle now and again... and will never smoke! We all have our eccentricities. Some are just more obvious about it than others!!!

Cheers! -the Pig

[Ginseng]

My uneducated hypothesis leads me to believe that the manner in which I store my cigar provides a slower rate of decay (or aging) than a traditional humidor. Since I don't have the money to spend on a fancy humidor, all of my stuff is stored in coolers. I keep everything in original boxes. Since I only open my coolers once or twice a week, the air exchange is minimal (in comparison with a wood humidor). This is evident by the fact that I only add distilled water to them once or twice a year. Although, this is not quite as efficient as using Niño's method, or your aluminum foil wrapping. Anyways, I'm too lazy to worry about storing cigars for decades before smoking. Also, it's impractical to perform experiments on cigars under controlled environmental conditions without expending a lot of time and effort. There's also too many variables with personal tastes, blend qualities, etc, etc. In the mean time, I'll just continue smoking cigars that might be over the hill, too young, just right, or taste like Igloo plastic.

A man after my own heart. This is pretty much how I deal with my cigars. Aside from the foil, I mean, to satisfy my most anal retentive ideas about preservation.

And don't get me wrong, I enjoy all of this. I've long let go things that are burdensome about the hobby.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

I say I am not a collector...

Cheers! -the Pig

I read you. Fascinatingly put.

Although we may not regard ourselves as collectors in intent, on some level, we all have to deal with some of the practical storage issues collectors face. I mean that above a certain stock level, management of inventory emerges as something that must be dealt with. Even if minimally so, proper conditions are a consideration in maintaining quality no matter the time scale.

Wilkey

[joeypots]

I have a few boxes I just can't seem to crack.

"03 RAG

'05 RA Belicoso

'06 PL Lonsdales

'03 HU Sir Winston