Who is the best sportsman or sportswoman of all time?

[celtmick1984]

I think you have to define your terms. If you mean the idealized version of the athlete-citizen-human being, you are going to get one answer. If you're asking, what athlete most dominated his or her sport (and for the longest period of time), you'll likely get another. If you're asking, who was the greatest winner, still another. If you're asking, who most captured the imagination for human possibilities/physical prowess, another. And then you have the problems of comparing persons over generations, between sports, and in different cultural epics. No singular answer could ever be reached by any group of intelligent people when the question is framed that way. However, I believe in the FOH.

[Ken Gargett]

For sure Ken, I see you point i'm from the West Indies and a vivvid cricket lover I have much respect for "The Don" and what he did in cricket(even thought he was a pain in the ass for the WI's lol) yes he did dominate longer but....

When looking into best sportman or sportwomen of all time, I believe you have to take into consideration that basketball is the 4th hardest sport to play behind Boxing, Ice Hockey,and Football and this is a proven statistical fact, So i'll rehash that statement to say in regards to MJ / more then any athlete has ever dominated a sport at that high caliber of difficulty level.

Also for the pro for MJ - Look what he did for the sport outside the arena, everyone knows MJ even a little kid in China knows "I wanna be like Mike" he made basketball one of the world's most popular and widely viewed sports, Air Jordan a billion dollar industry built off one mans ability to play the game.

we all know how stats can be 'fiddled', for arguments and against. remember, this was not my list - just one that was posted and i was curious to know members views.

i don't disagree about jordan - as i said, he made me watch the game before he'd won a flag (he gets demerits for that golf nonsense), but even in the 50-60 responses here, i've seen a few people nominate other basketballers, suggesting they don't think he is even the greatest in his own sport (personally, i don't know the game well enough to decide but i'd be surprised if he wasn't). with bradman, no such debate. with respect to the gentleman who nominated federer, elsewhere is a debate as to whether he is also the best in his sport - given that nadal has thumped him so regularly, hard to claim he is.

but there are all sorts of things to consider - image, obviously. does it count? that helps jordan. but i'd argue that it puts him behind ali and possibly pele and maradona. when i speent 6 months travelling through africa many years ago, i don't think we saw a village that did not have a kid in a maradona t-shirt. bradman played in a different era. today, he make squillions. then, he had a real job. no argument what he did out side the arena as you say. but what part does that play? i'm looking at on field stuff (no idea what the bloke who put together the list thought). on that (if one leaves out heather mckay and women's squash) then it has to be bradman.

what i have a real problem about is this 'hardest sport to play'. proven? i'd genuinely be keen to see what they claim. is it from a purely technical skill aspect, from endurance, from speed, mentally, complex rules, toughest opponents? with the greatest respect, i think that sort of claim is utter crap (and probably no more or less utter crap than trying to do this).

football? what sort? as a canadian, i assume you mean american football? undoubtedly tough, needs all sorts of skills (as a very long term skins fans, i know the downside all too well). but given the level of protection players use and the fact that, more than any other code, they use very specific skills, it is a giggle to rate it ahead "as hardest" over various other codes (soccer needs the ability to win an oscar pretending you've been kicked so leave that aside). there is no harder, tougher football on the planet than state of origin league. the all round skills needed in aussie rules (not that i'd ever say it to my aussie rules loving mates) probably make it the hardest to be really great. so many variables.

as i said at the start of this when i posted, we'll never ever agree but it is good fun (or if i didn't say that, i meant to).

[mazolaman]

Ian Botham.

[Ken Gargett]

The better version of Lou Gehrig was mentioned = Cal Ripken Jr.

Ken shouldn't WorldWide notability factor in to this. Shouldn't being the best require a world wide awknowledgement? Most of us Americanos don't know of these Cricket players listed and some others mentioned, but everyone has heard of Michael Jordan and Gretzky and others. I think that matters.

david, again, i think this is important but what extent? if not taken into account then as i said, it is probably heather mckay.

but, with respect, you moved very quickly from 'worldwide' to 'americans'.

i would say you are kidding if you think everyone has heard of gretzky (no offence to canadians - i actually went and saw him play when i lived in DC and he was undoubtedly fabulous, even for someone not a fan of the game). a poll of under 30's americans - how many would know much about gretsky? or anything about him? now think outside those countries that play ice hockey. it is, again no offence, a relatively minor sport in 'worldwide' terms.

jordan is different but again, to non americans under 30, i suspect time has made him far less well known than we might think. there would be basketballers from today (and apols, no idea who) who would be the hero to these kids.

but worldwide? the entire sub-continent is cricket obsessed. seriously. that is a billion pople (there might be about three not fanatical about it). the best hope for a long lasting peace between india and pakistan is surely their shared love for cricket. many years ago, i drove into quetta. and i swear this is true - i had a young kid come up and start yelling about something. seems he had not been able to get some scores for a third grade match in sydney and did i know them. everywhere you went, it was cricket, cricket, cricket. kids quoting batting and bowling averages to sevral decimal places. same in peshawar. same all along the afghan border. go to sri lanka. you won't get thru customs (as an aussie at least) before they want to talk cricket. so there is a billion up front. plus us, kiwis, poms, south africans, west indies etc etc.

you mentioned rg3 the other day - i see 20,000 people came out in DC to see him arrive at the ground (seriously? wish i had that much spare time) and hopefully it will be ten times that when he wins the bowl but if you announced in mumbai that tendulkar was having dinner at a restaurant, you'd stop the city. it could easily be in the 100's of 1,000's. and the same the nxt day and the next.

if you could run a poll with eveyone on the planet and ask them who was better known - gretzky or tendulkar or bradman etc etc, i have little doubt that the number knowing the cricketers would exceed gretzky by a factor in the 100s.

it would have beeen a lot easier if this bloke tha did the list actually set out his criteria because clearly we are not all on the same page with how to judge it (and i am not suggesting my way any more valid than any other).

[UpInSmoak]

Not even a mention of Usain Bolt? Worlds fastest man. He should be on the list as well I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M638Kwy8II

[lancerv43]

MJ without a doubt. Amazing

[canadianbeaver]

OK I have to make a HUGE confession. I did not know who Donald Bradman was.

So I looked it up and in 4 lines, this is what Wiki. had to say, so I guess I can see why he may be the one:

Sir Donald George Bradman, AC (27 August 1908 – 25 February 2001), often referred to as "The Don", was an Australian cricketer, widely acknowledged as the greatest batsman of all time.[1] Bradman's career Test batting average of 99.94 is often cited as statistically the greatest achievement by any sportsman in any major sport.

[Jason55555]

we all know how stats can be 'fiddled', for arguments and against. remember, this was not my list - just one that was posted and i was curious to know members views.

i don't disagree about jordan - as i said, he made me watch the game before he'd won a flag (he gets demerits for that golf nonsense), but even in the 50-60 responses here, i've seen a few people nominate other basketballers, suggesting they don't think he is even the greatest in his own sport (personally, i don't know the game well enough to decide but i'd be surprised if he wasn't). with bradman, no such debate. with respect to the gentleman who nominated federer, elsewhere is a debate as to whether he is also the best in his sport - given that nadal has thumped him so regularly, hard to claim he is.

but there are all sorts of things to consider - image, obviously. does it count? that helps jordan. but i'd argue that it puts him behind ali and possibly pele and maradona. when i speent 6 months travelling through africa many years ago, i don't think we saw a village that did not have a kid in a maradona t-shirt. bradman played in a different era. today, he make squillions. then, he had a real job. no argument what he did out side the arena as you say. but what part does that play? i'm looking at on field stuff (no idea what the bloke who put together the list thought). on that (if one leaves out heather mckay and women's squash) then it has to be bradman.

what i have a real problem about is this 'hardest sport to play'. proven? i'd genuinely be keen to see what they claim. is it from a purely technical skill aspect, from endurance, from speed, mentally, complex rules, toughest opponents? with the greatest respect, i think that sort of claim is utter crap (and probably no more or less utter crap than trying to do this).

football? what sort? as a canadian, i assume you mean american football? undoubtedly tough, needs all sorts of skills (as a very long term skins fans, i know the downside all too well). but given the level of protection players use and the fact that, more than any other code, they use very specific skills, it is a giggle to rate it ahead "as hardest" over various other codes (soccer needs the ability to win an oscar pretending you've been kicked so leave that aside). there is no harder, tougher football on the planet than state of origin league. the all round skills needed in aussie rules (not that i'd ever say it to my aussie rules loving mates) probably make it the hardest to be really great. so many variables.

as i said at the start of this when i posted, we'll never ever agree but it is good fun (or if i didn't say that, i meant to).

Yup for sure Ken its all in good fun , its kinda like defending your hero everyone is going to have there reasons

Here is the article for hardest sports to play or to be more technical the sport with the higest degree of difficulty.

Article is based on these skills.......

ENDURANCE: The ability to continue to perform a skill or action for long periods of time. Example: Lance Armstrong

STRENGTH: The ability to produce force. Example: NFL linebackers.

POWER: The ability to produce strength in the shortest possible time. Example: Barry Bonds.

SPEED: The ability to move quickly. Example: Marion Jones, Maurice Green.

AGILITY: The ability to change direction quickly. Example: Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm.

FLEXIBILITY: The ability to stretch the joints across a large range of motion. Example: Gymnasts, divers.

NERVE: The ability to overcome fear. Example: High-board divers, race-car drivers, ski jumpers.

DURABILITY: The ability to withstand physical punishment over a long period of time. Example: NBA/NHL players.

HAND-EYE COORDINATION: The ability to react quickly to sensory perception. Example: A hitter reacting to a breaking pitch; a drag racer timing acceleration to the green light.

ANALYTIC APTITUDE: The ability to evaluate and react appropriately to strategic situations. Example: Joe Montana reading a defense; basketball point guard on a fast break.

Click Here

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills

Wish had convo in person with a cigar and a nice rum, its good cigar talk lol

[Rushman]

Several come to mind. Bo Jackson, Jack Nicklaus, MJ, Jackie Joyner, Ali. Just to make a few.

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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.630203,-87.069837

[Rushman]

Forgot to add babe didrickson zaharias

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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.630097,-87.069809

[bebster]

What about Pyrros Dimas? He competed in four consecutive Olympic games and won gold, gold, gold, silver. Not many athletes have that length of career (16+ years) whilst still maintaining dominance. The only reason he didn't win the last games he competed in was due to injury.

[MIKA27]

apparently schmacher was considered by this bloke for his list but he could not find room for him.

obviously a very talented driver but i'd tend to agree with him not there - for me, car racing has the extra variable of the car itself. you can argue that someone has a better cricket bat or golf club than a competitor but i suspect that the difference is far more minimal. that, for me, rules out drivers and also jockeys. i know others won't agree.

and if you doubt that gear makes a difference at this level, have a look at swimming records before and after the supersuits were banned.

I could go on all day about how wrong your perception is Ken: Driving an F1 is not the same as driving your 1908 Ford model T down the road.

As well as a huge and sustained toll on their mental faculties, courage and general fitness levels, for two hours each F1 race driver is frequently exposed to pressures that will never be experienced by most spectators.

Definition: "G-force is the pressure that gravity exerts on an object when it is accelerating relative to freefall"

IMO: Grand prix drivers are extraordinary athletes who can withstand these stressful forces while making crucial, split-second decisions.

Imagine trying to make a lightning-quick manoeuvre while upside down on a roller coaster when there are other roller coasters on the same track…

Motorsport's g-force spectrum ranges from 2g - a high-speed corner in a sports car, perhaps - to the 5.3g from 0-100mph in less than a second.

Even in ordinary grand-prix races, F1 drivers cope with 3-5g throughout each race. The predominant accelerative forces experienced by a driver are lateral and longitudinal, with the peaks exceeding 4.5g. The driver's body will experience forces four and a half times his or her own weight, albeit for short periods of time.

Fighter and aerobatic pilots withstand higher levels of g, but only on a vertical axis, and driving can create tougher g pressures for the body. Military pilots experience greater g loads, but these are typically aligned with the spine, whereas an F1 driver endures these loads almost at right angles to the spine.

Weather the 'car' is a variable or not, you still need to drive it, control it, think and react whilst driving at 320kph. To me, that is a sport and one which Schumacher has been acknowledged for at the Laureus awards twice and this award is renowned to celebrate 'all' sports from around the world and award it to the best.

[mazolaman]

Steve Redgrave......5 consecutive olympic gold...3 commonwealth gold....9 world rowing championship gold....

Has anyone dominated their sport for so long?

[mazolaman]

I know absolutely nothing about sports and athletes. So much so that you'd think I am from another planet.

Someone enlighten me on this: why is Muhammad Ali considered the greatest boxer, athlete, etc?

Because he was an iconoclast.

As well as being a gracefull and intelligent boxer, he was also a a racial hero in those times.

[MIKA27]

I know absolutely nothing about sports and athletes. So much so that you'd think I am from another planet.

Someone enlighten me on this: why is Muhammad Ali considered the greatest boxer, athlete, etc?

Because 'some people' love to hold onto the past and recognise someone who 'was' the best at THAT time rather than actually recognise THE BEST overall.

IMO: Mike Tyson beats Ali hands down

Have a read: http://bleacherrepor...ould-really-win

The same can be said about those who mention Ayrton Senna vs Michael Schumacher. Both drivers are agressive and both worthy of the title 'Best ever' BUT as unfortunate as it is, which one is still around and who has the most accolades. As far as I'm concerned, that's a no brainer.This debate has been going since 1993, so even when MS was still a rookie, the F1 world was already questioning who was better Senna or Schumacher.

[Jason55555]

It is a general key word General Opinion that basketball is up there in the world of sports as one of the hardest games to play NOT THE HARDEST one of the hardest to play ( once again the ESPN article http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills for the difficulty stats) and Jordan owned it, to reduce Jordan down to saying he only jumped high with style is a joke in itself, he is one of the best defencesive players of all time in basketball and to equate Jordan's name next to failure outside life the 20th most powerful celebrity in the world with $55 million earned & Jordan Brand generating $1 billion in sales yea what a loser LOL. Jordan had little class yes he had problems what super sports star hasnt even Bradman has his criticisms of being a a "snob" and a "loner" who forgot his connections in Bowral eveyone is human and shows a little lack of class from time to time no man in perfect in the game or out of it.

And I said IMO "more then any athlete has ever dominated a sport at that high caliber of difficulty level" With boxing,ice hockey, and football coming in before basketball all the athletes you listed are surfer,cricketer,amateur wrestler,Pole vaultor which are bellow the statistical opinion of difficulty when compared to a basketball star. Once again this is just a statistical opinion and based on this opinion i'm saying that basketball is a far more difficult sports then these, thus making MJ excel above these stars.

(When i'm talking about Difficulty it is in terms of a combination of ANALYTIC APTITUDE,ENDURANCE,STRENGTH,POWER,SPEED,AGILITY,FLEXIBILITY, NERVE,DURABILITY,HAND-EYE COORDINATION. )

I believe it boils down to this...

• -Difficulty of the game he played at the level he played it with Jordan dominated (I play cricket the level between cricket and basketball there no match basketball takes it)
  
• -What he did for the overall game (most people around the world and even on this thread don't know who half the sportmen/women mentioned on this thread (doesn't mean there not AMAZING athletes)but i'm sure to go anywhere in the world you know MJ he a World Icon when you birth people all around to want to watch a game they never knew about, now that's something special)
  
• - Yes as DUMB and STUPID as it is advertising does play a part in determining the best sports star of all time because it reaches the people the fans to make sports popular, Air Jordan 1 billion dollar industry
  
• - He was a Multi-Sport Athlete not the best in other games yes he sucked but with the proper training MJ coulda been a pro at any sport or competition, how many athletes can even make a transition into another sport so fast and be good very few let alone make the transition to being with.
  

POINT Just want to say hope i'm not coming off angry or anything, just passionate LOL just want to have a good debate with my FOH brothers hahahah

Ken I think you'll get a laugh out of this looks like the Sydney Morning Herald agrees with me...lol http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/fitness/blogs/boot-camp/the-greatest-athlete-ever-20120216-1taaq.html

Also bottom of the page(and then he took the court and dominated the sport of basketball for years with a style not seen by any athlete in any other sport.- I know this is just one newspapers writer IMO who prob doesn't know sports that well , but I'll still count it LOL) Shame Sydney Herald didnt put The Don in there own list

=

I'd have to say "The Don" is a tight tie for first place with MJ he just suffers from North American not taking to cricket which is dumb. Even Pele 1 vote overall this debate is never going to get a single person, Its just comes down to who you believe is your all time best and my vote goes for MJ

[Ken Gargett]

Wish had convo in person with a cigar and a nice rum, its good cigar talk lol

on that we can agree. eexactly the sort of chat with cigars and ruims that rob and i have endlessly on his or my balcony (i often have to put him straight as well). it does seem a very american-focussed survey if one looks at the sports and judges.

first state of origin game on wednesday fortnight, i think. the glorious qlders v the hated nsw upstarts. i believe that they do show it on espn or something. if you get the chance, have a squizz and see where it ranks for you - yes, one game not conclusive either way but it will help.

[Ken Gargett]

The better version of Lou Gehrig was mentioned = Cal Ripken Jr.

Ken shouldn't WorldWide notability factor in to this. Shouldn't being the best require a world wide awknowledgement? Most of us Americanos don't know of these Cricket players listed and some others mentioned, but everyone has heard of Michael Jordan and Gretzky and others. I think that matters.

david, you got me curious re gretzky. i went to my nephews - 16 and 19. both have or do play rugby, soccer, tennis, cricket etc. one plays basketball.

asked them if they knew who wayne gretzsy, ali and michael jordan were. nothing else. boxer and basketballer but gretzky just got blank looks and "no idea". but i would expect the same if you asked canadian or american kids who the don was.

[Ken Gargett]

Ken I think you'll get a laugh out of this looks like the Sydney Morning Herald agrees with me...lol http://www.smh.com.a...0216-1taaq.html

Also bottom of the page(and then he took the court and dominated the sport of basketball for years with a style not seen by any athlete in any other sport.- I know this is just one newspapers writer IMO who prob doesn't know sports that well , but I'll still count it LOL) Shame Sydney Herald didnt put The Don in there own list

i thought what is going on when i saw this?????? then i saw it was written by an american who was a chicago bulls fan since he was 12. no aussie would dare leave the don out.

in general, a heap of names i'd have been inclined to, at the very least, include in the list. i probably would have been better served by saying, here is this bloke's list, what do others think and what are their lists.

[Ken Gargett]

Because 'some people' love to hold onto the past and recognise someone who 'was' the best at THAT time rather than actually recognise THE BEST overall.

IMO: Mike Tyson beats Ali hands down

this one i need to have a word, not re the racing (those guys may be brilliant but the contribution of the car will always rule them out of my list - and then what about jack brabham who i believe, designed and built his own car and then won F1. does that extra dimension get brownie points?).

a few years ago i had a few drinks with the only bloke on the planet who ever went the distance with ali - twice! and both in 15 rounders. i asked him (this is joe bugner for those wondering - a pom who moved to australia and is considered by many authorities as the best white boxer of the last few decades). he never fought tyson though he tried. at 49 (seriously, that should be banned), he became the oldest world champion ever when he beat bonecrusher smith. he immediately challenged tyson. he says tyson called him and asked if he was serious and that if he came to melbourne, would joe fight him. joe said absolutely. but then made the mistake of saying something like, 'you do realise i will beat you'. apparently tyson flew into a rage, screamed abuse and nothing more happened.

i asked him exactly that (hard to find too many people more qualified) - who would have won in a fight between ali and tyson - if both were at their peak. he just laughed and said that tyson would not have been able to lay a glove on ali. he thought ali was so far and away superior that it was not funny. far too fast. said ali was far too clever for tyson (those of us who remember the extraordinary rumble in the jungle with foreman can attest to that). he also thought ali, who he remained friends with, was a very dirty boxer and would cheat at any chance. said that ali used to leave the laces on his gloves poorly done up and then try and rub them in your eyes while holding.

of course, we'll never know but the speed of ali, and how clever he was in the ring, convince me it would have been ali.

actually, a couple of good mates of mine are boxing writers. i'll ask them both (one a pom and one an aussie). will let you know.

[Ken Gargett]

I think that would apply to all the 70% of world population that do not live in England or former English colonies...

Having a cricketer as the worlds best is as valid as a darts, snooker, croquet or curling player... Or a horse. Phar Lap???

that has been discussed and is valid to a degree. with bradman/cricket, the numbers are massively skewed because of the extraordinary obsession that the entire sub continent holds for it. the % of the earth's population that actually does know/follow cricker/bradman etc is actually much much higher than most sports. so where do you draw the line? there are a billion people there alone that fall into the cricket camp. not too many sports exceed that. he is probably better known than most on that list (ali/jordan likely exceptions).

as has been said, the problem we have is that no criteria were set when this bloke did his list.

[Ken Gargett]

i've just had a thought - for the next fun list, what is the world's greatest sport?

suspect no more agreement re that.

[Fuzz]

i've just had a thought - for the next fun list, what is the world's greatest sport?

suspect no more agreement re that.

It's a tie between full contact tiddlywinks or office chair hockey.

[Agricola]

The greatest sports man/woman should be phrased more like "The greatest sports man/woman to you."

People will argue until they're blue in the face. But quite frankly although someone such as Michael Jordan was a great basketball player I've never watched a full basketball match in my life (I'm 37 this month). If I passed Michael Jordan on the street I wouldn't recognise him and if someone told me who he was I'd just continue walking anyway.

What I'm trying to say is that the greatest factor in deciding who is the best is you. I'd be willing to bet that the actual sports person is probably one of the smallest factors in the equation probably below the sport.

For example I don't like cricket and find it rather mediocre. Added to that I think Shane Warne is an absolute prick of the first order. However I'd still rate him above any American football player. The reason being that,

A: I know the sport and the rules.

B: I played it at school and enjoyed it.

C: We kicked some Aussie arse.

D: Warne is a cock but he can play the game very well.

E: He shagged Liz Hurley.

If I saw Shane Warne in the street I might stop and say something to him, however he'd wish he was Michael Jordan!

As for the toughest sport that's a bit silly. You could take Lennox Lewis who is undoubtedly a great boxer. Put him in an F1 car and he'd probably state it is the toughest sport he's ever tried. Again it's down to the individual you're asking more than the actual sport itself.

You could pick a gymnast (a very tough sport) and place him in a competitive eating contest. I'd be willing to bet the Olympian gymnast would find eating 30 hotdogs in 5 minutes tougher than getting 9.0!

It's all relative to you, there are no absolutes ... in my opinion!

[Jah]

Michael Jordan, he ruined my childhood as a Knicks fan and I still hate him to this day. But he was the best to ever play the game during the toughest period in the league. Respect.