Long-term Aging in Ziplock Bags

[PigFish]

Not discounting your experience my friend, I would call it a random occurrence. I would suggest getting a smoking friend to label 3 cigars each and put them in a sealed bag as well. Then randomly smoke and opine the 6 cigars. When all said and done have him identify which cigar came from which stash. My guess is that they will not be identifiable as a group, while they will retain their individuality. Cigars are like people, we may group here and there but we are all different.

Great thread! -Ray

[semery74]

I'm a huge proponent of bagging and tagging. My cellar environment almost demands it, since I've experienced outbreaks of Foreign Grain Beetles a few years back. The source was a batch of hops I never used for brewing. Plus oxidation is our enemy and if we can retard the process then why wouldn't we do everything we can. There are some people here that go as far as vacuum sealing. My thoughts on that are over kill since polypropylene is gas permeable at a very slow rate. Do I think there is a difference in quality after a long period? I believe minimal at best, but my point in performing this is to ensure there are no uninvited guests during my smoking experience.

[PigFish]

I'm a huge proponent of bagging and tagging. My cellar environment almost demands it, since I've experienced outbreaks of Foreign Grain Beetles a few years back. The source was a batch of hops I never used for brewing. Plus oxidation is our enemy and if we can retard the process then why wouldn't we do everything we can. There are some people here that go as far as vacuum sealing. My thoughts on that are over kill since polypropylene is gas permeable at a very slow rate. Do I think there is a difference in quality after a long period? I believe minimal at best, but my point in performing this is to ensure there are no uninvited guests during my smoking experience.

While I have no evidence to call you wrong, nor do I wish to, I do wish to bring in some known facts and proffer arguments.

Remember what I have to say is not intended to reflect on your own environment, desires or beliefs, just to separate fact from hearsay, even if the hearsay is intuitive. Is oxygen destructive to cigars in the form that we know as room air? Do we know that really? We don't. While I would have to speculate that oxygen plays a role in tobacco development, and perhaps in deterioration as you do, I have always found it profoundly egocentric for many a cigar writer (I am thinking of a famous author now, not focusing on you by the way!) to proclaim that it is oxygen that is the cause of specific negative attributes of cigars or the specific positive effects of "aging" cigars. At best I think that we don't know. As individuals we can believe what we want, but beliefs and facts may well be worlds apart and that should be argued.

Could it be nitrogen or one of the other components of room air that has a negative effect on cigars? Should cigars be charge with argon??? I can't say. With water containing oxygen, a component necessary for cigar elasticity and long term structural integrity, being required in a certain percentage to keep cigars from deteriorating as a matter of fact, could it not be the water itself that eventually kills the cigar? It is the water content and the minimum necessary for capillary action that effects the formation of mold in other organic matter. Could it not be bacteria or other organisms?

Saying that oxygen is the enemy is easy but until it is proven I have to go with what I know. What I know is that the majority of cigars that I have smoked have never been in long term contact with an impervious membrane and have likely never seen a vacuum. I have smoked some great cigars! Could they have been improved? Perhaps yes, Could hey have been damaged by the very process that someone unknowingly claimed is an improvement? The answer is also yes. Is the air that one traps in a bag, less than capable of damage? At what molecular level of concentration is oxygen no longer a problem? What is the byproduct of this exchange? Can we measure it?

I would just like readers to read and take any opinion, including mine with a healthy degree of skepticism. This hobby is full of wives tales and speculations. Of the millions of cigar that have been smoked and credited for excellence, or lack there of, who can calm that it was oxygen that was the cause of either? I can't.

No offense intended mate by highlighting your post. Just offering some food for thought.

-Piggy

[semery74]

Is there really a need to preface everything we post with a proclamation of opinion? I think the opinion is implied if doesn't accompany supporting facts and references. Which at the time, I was enjoying a cigar on my deck, and wasn't about to collect and gather every bit of information on the subject to support my opinion. And it wasn't my intention to spark a debate or negate others' opinions. But if you are interested there are mountains of published material on the autooxidation of polyphenol molecules.

[dB69]

...Can we measure it?...

Shot down in flames... Personally I am having a kind of a different attitude of life.

Human being has not been able to scientifically prove that birds can fly, but they do. Human being cannot build bird's wings, but they exist.

A bumblebee is physically too heavy to fly, but it actually does fly. I have seen that, or have I?

Are we able to prove that we are having a good cigar at the time we are in seventh heaven when smoking? No. So, nobody has ever had a good cigar. What a waste of time!

Without breaking any barriers and/or thinking "scientifically stupidly" many breakouts of science hadn't happened.

No offense anyhow, just bringing up some comments. Sorry, I just couldn't resist writing this.

[Ginseng]

… I placed the remaining 25 into another cedar SLB which in turn I sealed in a ziplock bag. Then stashed 'em down deep. Both boxes have been stored in the same humidor, under otherwise identical conditions.

Bob, when you wrote “stashed ‘em down deep” do you mean that you literally buried these amongst other tightly packed or stacked boxes? And was the “smoking” SLB kept more open, exposed?

I've heard that cigars which are sealed or don't get much airflow tend to age slower.

So goes the theory. Less air means less oxygen. And less oxygen means slower aging. Age-related development via oxidation (chemical reactions that occur in the presence of oxygen) is a process that takes place in many consumables that acquire an attribute called “complexity.” For example, wines and spirits (in barrel), tea, beef, cheese, and tobacco.

I thought one of the goals/delights was an aged cigar, which over time might become more rich and complex. What I am hearing by this experiment, is rather that the cigar is becoming less rich and complex over time?

Yes, this is one goal that is expressly sought by some, and an effect that is incidental to others. As to the apparent paradox, that is indeed a puzzler. But, it’s important to be clear about the attribute that is changing over time. Richness and complexity are generally hoped to increase with age. In my experience, strength, defined as “nic kick,” almost invariably decreases. As to the absolute and relative loss of “strength and flavor,” based on the test that Bob described, strictly speaking, you can’t rule out the possibility that if this trend is true and the normal progression in his smoking storage environment, the effect is due to the environment itself.

Now I rather doubt that is the case but let’s take a ridiculous example for the sake of illustration. Let’s say for example that my storage is a combination glass case +fridge wine cooler down below. And let’s say I keep my ready-to-smoke in the sparely-filled, display glass case up top and my office has lots of large windows. My aging stock goes in the Tetris-packed, vaultlike cooler down below that is well-sealed with an interior that is dark because of the solid walls and door. In this setup, the cigars up top will see sun and get lots of air circulation around the box. In the vault down below, each box is butted up against walls on all sides, and better yet, the walls are other boxes of cigars. In this setup, I’d expect the cigars up top to really get punished, aging rapidly and for the worse whereas the cigars in the cooler will experience the passage of “aging” time not only much more slowly but differently as well because of the nature of the different exposure.

I would believe two boxes of cigars, one in a ziplock bag one not, would have differing effects on how the tobacco ages and it's properties change over long periods of time.

There are two concepts that are bound up in what you wrote. First, that things change over time. Second, that change that happens quickly is qualitatively different than change that happens slowly. A subtle but essential distinction worth noting when talking about differential aging effects. That is to say, a car that is positively thrashed for 50,000 kilometers will be in a different state than an identical car that was coddled for the same number of miles.

Would this then similarly relate to how the jarred cigars are such a classic item then? How they age and mature well, but the flavours and potency stay omnipresent, for lack of a better explanation. I guess, although to a lesser extent, this would be similar to the varnished box effect, and also for those cigars that are fully parchment-/waxed-paper-wrapped, when compared to standard cigars packaged in standard dress-boxes. Although, to a lesser extent than bagging, these all lead to a form of the same effects, no?

Never really thought about it being to obvious this way. Always just thought about bagging as exclusively slow aging them, not really flavour-preservation, so to speak

To your first point, right, that’s how I see it. To your second point, see the two responses preceding yours. Slow aging, in this case, is identical with flavor preservation.

…air is going to enter the ziplock via osmosis. Of course that depends on the type of ziploc you're using. The air entering will enter at a slower rate…slowing things down. As to how this affects the cigars all I can guess is that the reduced air exchange aids the "aging" process. The "freshness" of the cigars is maintained over time…What I'd be concerned about is capturing the less ideal conditions in that ziploc'd bag. Such as too much humidity that could cause damage over time. Cigars last because they can "breathe" over time in the right conditions. For those of you that have Cazadores, is the foil pack airtight?

Lots of ideas in your post, bund. But first, diffusion, not osmosis, is the process of interest here. All Ziploc bags are polyethylene but I get your point. Cryovac bags and Saran Wrap are different things because of their different materials and as a result, their different oxygen transport rates. And per CanuckSAR’s comment, this applies also to jars, varnished, etc. Air exchange, then, is really the diffusion rate of oxygen that is the key exchange process of interest here. And if we accept that some oxygen is necessary for aging to take place at all, then the goal becomes finding the right materials and storage to achieve the rate that will result in the right “stage” of aging for one’s cigar consumption rate. That is, if one is a 6-cigar a day smoker and keeps relatively little stock, then might as well forget about Ziplocs entirely. Conversely, if one smokes infrequently and stocks hundreds of boxes, then some manner of slowing down the aging process might be prudent to insure that any given cigar is not expired by the time we get to it. See rallones’ post for testimonial.

On your point about humidity, now you’re bringing in another character, moisture, as a player in aging. Aside from potential issues with mold, one can also hypothesize as to the effect of moisture content in the tobacco as a factor in the aging process. As to RyJ Cazadores, the foil-laminated paper is certainly not air tight. It’s very similar, maybe identical to the packaging of the Quintero Brevas, a decidedly more down-scale cigar. The Caz is one of my favorite vitolas and I stock quite a few boxes and I pretty much leave them alone in their original packaging.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

I used a kitchen style food vacuum packing device readily available in the US. I packed 5 cigars together and included a round, disk-type hygrometer on top of the cigars.

I did a "light" vacuum packing instead of creating a high vacuum. In a previous experiment I saw a high vacuum tended to crush the cigars.

For the first several hours the hygrometer seemed to hold the humidity at 70% even while out of a humidor.

The next morning the hygrometer was reading 66% if I recall correctly.Over the next 24 hours (36 hours total) the humidity in the package was in the lower 60's (Ambient air humidity was around 40%)

I figured this wasn't going to work so I put the sealed cigars back in a humidor. 24 hours later the humidity in the sealed package was nearly identical to the humidors.

So, it appears the vacuum sealing material slowed down but did not halt the diffusion of water vapor from the package to the room air. And the process was reversible.

Maybe slowing the water-vapor and air exchange does slow the process of aging.

Bob

Fascinating. Thank you for reporting this. This makes perfect sense as vac pac bags are designed to be oxygen barriers and not moisture barriers. See this page for some idea of how Saran and PE (Ziploc) compare on moister and oxygen transmission.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

I'm a huge proponent of bagging and tagging. My cellar environment almost demands it, since I've experienced outbreaks of Foreign Grain Beetles a few years back...Plus oxidation is our enemy and if we can retard the process then why wouldn't we do everything we can. There are some people here that go as far as vacuum sealing. My thoughts on that are over kill since polypropylene is gas permeable at a very slow rate. Do I think there is a difference in quality after a long period? I believe minimal at best, but my point in performing this is to ensure there are no uninvited guests during my smoking experience.

Interesting. So you have a completely different purpose for bagging. But I may ask, if all your cigars are bagged, then what are you comparing these cigars to in order to detect a difference?

Wilkey

<edit> Ah, I think you mean a difference in how a given box of bagged cigars changes over time and now a bagged versus unbagged cigar, right?

[Ginseng]

Not discounting your experience my friend, I would call it a random occurrence. I would suggest getting a smoking friend to label 3 cigars each and put them in a sealed bag as well. Then randomly smoke and opine the 6 cigars. When all said and done have him identify which cigar came from which stash. My guess is that they will not be identifiable as a group, while they will retain their individuality. Cigars are like people, we may group here and there but we are all different.

Great thread! -Ray

Ahh that old devil probability and statistics. And coupled with detectability too.

…Is oxygen destructive to cigars in the form that we know as room air? …While I would have to speculate that oxygen plays a role in tobacco development, and perhaps in deterioration…

Could it be nitrogen or one of the other components of room air that has a negative effect on cigars? … could it not be the water itself…? It is the water content and the minimum necessary for capillary action that effects the formation of mold in other organic matter. Could it not be bacteria or other organisms?

… Can we measure it?

Piggy,

I would propose that deterioration is nothing more than development gone in a way or to a degree that is undesirable. And to your point about water, since the vast majority of terrestrial life depends on the presence of both oxygen and water, it seems to me not to be a case of either or. I’m confident in hypothesizing that both are complicit in the process of aging. Sorry to be a stickler, but doesn’t capillary action require bulk liquid water? If so, then this phenomenon is not a factor under typical cigar storage conditions.

As for measurement, I’m confident we can. But first you’ll have to define what “it” is for me to do so.

Thought provoking ruminations, sir. I always read well your posts though I may not always have the wherewithal to respond in kind.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

Ok, I've shot my wad now. Went through a Partagas Culebras and a Quintero Brevas reading and responding to this engaging thread. Thank you to all the posters who've taken the time to contribute.

Time for bed.

Wilkey

[shrink]

Bob, when you wrote "stashed 'em down deep" do you mean that you literally buried these amongst other tightly packed or stacked boxes? And was the "smoking" SLB kept more open, exposed?

Wilkey

The 2001 Party coronas were packed in identical SLB's, the only difference being that one was sealed in a ziplock bag that I had closely pressed by hand to remove as much air as possible. Both boxes were actually on the same shelf in the humidor, although the ziplocked one was in the rear, closely packed with other aging boxes. It sat there, unopened, for almost seven years. The "smoking stash" was in the front of the shelf, where I could easily access it, although it too was closely packed in with other boxes. Obviously, the "smoking" box was taken from the humidor and opened at least 25 times, exposing the cigars to "fresh" air repeatedly over the years.

I've got to pull out my ziplocked Ramon Allones 898's, which have also been stored "unmolested" for over six years. I've been smoking from an otherwise identical, but unbagged OSU MAR02 varnished box since 2005, when I received both boxes from the same German vendor. So I should be able to make a reasonable comparison. It has always been my opinion that varnished boxes, being by nature more impermeable than unvarnished boxes, provide a similar lower oxygen aging environment. Still, one box has been opened many times, but the ziplocked one has not been.

[baragh]

Not discounting your experience my friend, I would call it a random occurrence. I would suggest getting a smoking friend to label 3 cigars each and put them in a sealed bag as well. Then randomly smoke and opine the 6 cigars. When all said and done have him identify which cigar came from which stash. My guess is that they will not be identifiable as a group, while they will retain their individuality. Cigars are like people, we may group here and there but we are all different.

Great thread! -Ray

This would indeed be an interesting test. I really hope someone has the resources/time to conduct something this in the future.

I'm a big fan of your posts Ray, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents on the random occurrence idea. The conclusion that an observation is due to random chance (i.e. saying there is no causation) is just as strong a conclusion as saying that there is causation. In other words that we can't make conclude that ziplocking does anything because there is some chance that it is a random occurrence due to lack of data or non double blind etc.

-Will

Would love to see some further experiments!

[PigFish]

This would indeed be an interesting test. I really hope someone has the resources/time to conduct something this in the future.

I'm a big fan of your posts Ray, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents on the random occurrence idea. The conclusion that an observation is due to random chance (i.e. saying there is no causation) is just as strong a conclusion as saying that there is causation. In other words that we can't make conclude that ziplocking does anything because there is some chance that it is a random occurrence due to lack of data or non double blind etc.

-Will

Would love to see some further experiments!

I appreciate the complement, thank you!

So what then would be any kind of test? Frankly, I think, based on the individuality of cigars in boxes, much more so different boxes, I don't think it is possible, but I thought of one yesterday none the less.

I take 6 Partagas Chicos. Why Chicos? They are a cheap and more homogenous products that long filler Habanos.

Okay, I take 6 cigars. I leave them in the cello wrap and cut them in half. I keep the halved cigars in pairs. I weigh each cigar half and estimate the required desiccant to maintain 60% RH with an ERH desiccant. I add the half cigars, the desiccant, some support for the cigar and room air into separate vacuum bags. I vacuum them all out.

I puncture all the bags with a gas charging needle. The needle will supply pure industrial grade, which is medical grade in my area, oxygen and reseal the bag. The bag now contains, effectively, only oxygen or at the very least, mostly oxygen and the other cigar contents.

The pairing half of the cigars I do the same but this time the gas is argon.

We now have two nearly identical cigars. One bagged in only oxygen, and one without it.

In one years time 6 smokers open the bags. They smoke the one half cigars lighting the center cut section for a duration of not more than 3 minutes. They compare notes on the cigars tastes. They do this back to back.

Which half of which cigar was marinated in which gas is disclosed and analysis is made!

.... don't say it! Too much trouble when all you need to do is follow a guru! -Piggy

[PigFish]

... I forgot to note. One must let the cigars rest or purge them before lighting. I can only imagine getting sued because oxygen charged exploding cigars were not considered funny!!! -LOL

I would have to un-bag them myself before passing them out! -the Pig

[PigFish]

Ahh that old devil probability and statistics. And coupled with detectability too.

Piggy,

I would propose that deterioration is nothing more than development gone in a way or to a degree that is undesirable. And to your point about water, since the vast majority of terrestrial life depends on the presence of both oxygen and water, it seems to me not to be a case of either or. I’m confident in hypothesizing that both are complicit in the process of aging. Sorry to be a stickler, but doesn’t capillary action require bulk liquid water? If so, then this phenomenon is not a factor under typical cigar storage conditions.

As for measurement, I’m confident we can. But first you’ll have to define what “it” is for me to do so.

Thought provoking ruminations, sir. I always read well your posts though I may not always have the wherewithal to respond in kind.

Wilkey

Ahh that old devil probability and statistics. And coupled with detectability too.

Piggy,

I would propose that deterioration is nothing more than development gone in a way or to a degree that is undesirable. And to your point about water, since the vast majority of terrestrial life depends on the presence of both oxygen and water, it seems to me not to be a case of either or. I’m confident in hypothesizing that both are complicit in the process of aging. Sorry to be a stickler, but doesn’t capillary action require bulk liquid water? If so, then this phenomenon is not a factor under typical cigar storage conditions.

As for measurement, I’m confident we can. But first you’ll have to define what “it” is for me to do so.

Thought provoking ruminations, sir. I always read well your posts though I may not always have the wherewithal to respond in kind.

Wilkey

Cheers mate. While academic dialogue may not be at the top of every members "A" list, as evidenced by responses to my previous post which appears to have gone over like a lead balloon, I still enjoy exercising my neurons on rare occasion and am glad that you chose to partake.

Hmmmm. Where to start!

Deterioration as I would define it in this case would be a breakdown of the tobacco in either a cellular or sub-cellular fashion. While I cede the point that deterioration carries with it an implication of negativity, decay, breakdown, perhaps even to taste alone, I am unsure as to whether I can refer to aging as a form of deterioration or not! I tend to think along the lines of classic thermodynamics where objects move to a lower energy state. With that said, I was backing speculation that aging (as far as taste is concerned) may be a side affect of deterioration (perhaps wrongly). I took that line because in my mind oxidization is most often linked, at least by me, a non-chemist, as process that aids the change, or loss of one material to the benefit of another material, such as iron to iron oxide. Perhaps it is not fair to refer to oxidization as a process of decay, but only as a process of change. Yet, that is how I tend to view it.

Since oxygen was brought up, and it is commonly liked to the loss (deterioration) of one substance in favor of another, I was trying to follow along with that mindset. It appeared to be the subject at hand. I think that there may be a marked difference between how fields of study, biologist verses a material scientist may view oxidization. One perhaps a life giving force, a building block, while the other may consider it an action limiting the "life expectancy" of certain materials...

Enough of that!

Either way, and being an ignorant sceptic on the subject of gas verses tobacco, I am entertaining a position that tobacco may have no measurable life span as far as the elements that contribute to taste are concerned. I mean who is to say a cigar went over the hill? It is only on trial once, for all of eternity.

Lets talk capillary action. This too I think is a matter of perspective when viewed though the ambiguity of what is "wet."

Some time ago I got a bit involved in the water activity of tobacco as a side interest relating to my humidor and humidification ventures. Real specifics about water activity in tobacco is not really easy to come by, but I learned quite a bit about the topic regardless, mostly as it pertains to the preservation of food.

Lets take an Oreo Cooke as an example. While the concept of a cookie in a bag with an almost unlimited shelf life to the consumer is an expected given in todays marketplace, I can assure you that it is not really a very simple task. Lets call the cookie a three component system. One component is the cream filling. The second component is the cookie "biscuit" on each side of the filling. The third component is the air in the bag.

None of this is a random occurrence! The water activity in all the elements must match or you get some variant of the following. A soggy cookie biscuit, a mushy center filling, a dry center filling, a harder than stone biscuit, or a package of mush. Lastly... a bag filled with bacteria, or fungus!

The last part, regarding biologic feeding has a large dependence on water content and appears to some to be more dependent on water activity than to water content by weight. When you pick up your cookie, I doubt that you think that each part has the same "water in it" as the other parts. Looking at water as a percentage weight, or in actual volume, no correlation could likely be made. BUT each component has the same water activity level. If they did not, the water of one component looking to move from high concentration to a lower concentration would diffuse from one component to another. This would include air to cookie or filling, filling to cookie or air, or any other combination. Considering the density of components an analysis may actually show that your ostensibly dry cookie biscuit, has more water by weight than the filling!

So, when you pick up your cookie are you thinking that one is as wet as the others? Probably not.

Along the same lines what you and I consider dry may have enough water as a stream of molicules to support organisms dependent on capillary action. I picked capillary action verses osmotic or matrix factors due to the "mold" threat that we face in cigar storage. A direct correlation to tobacco has not been easy for me to research, and perhaps is not really relevant to my needs and interest, but from what I have found, depending on the type of tobacco, it can support the capillary action of mold when it contains as little as 25% water by weight. Less than 15% by weigh is a problem too. At this point, shippers have found that the tobacco is prone to shatter, ruining long filler product.

Prior to my interest in Cuban cigars singularly, I smoked non-Cuban variants. I kept those cigar considerably wetter; a greater percentage water by weight. I would have still considered those as dry products, but I did occasionally have mold problems in some boxes. Some of these cigars would squeal with an audible crack when handled, but would still have enough water to support the capillary action needed to support mold.

What I am saying is... that liquid water as we see it, is not necessary to support biological capillary action. While I have not researched it in detail, this is what I have gleaned from my studies.

This table of biologic growth as it relates to water activity (Aw) may be of interest to some of you. Yes, I too was looking for tobacco!

I think water activity is "the true" definitive measurement for a conversation on how water affects the smoking experience and may have some, little or no effect at all on storage. With my interest in the immediate gratification of smoking, I see water activity as a mean to truly establish a cigars readiness to smoke. I have as of yet no means to measure it myself, to prove or disprove my speculations. I therefore do not offer them, my speculations as facts.

Cheers, Piggy

[OZCUBAN]

Hi all ,

Thought I would put my two cents worth in here ,when I first set up my cooler ,I to had my stash zip locked ,more so to in my mind protect my cigars just in case I got it wrong ( see:paranoia )

I to have sampled cigars from the zip locked bags and thought they were better than there unzipped cousins, however I have also noticed it also works the opposite way as well I have no doubt that the zipp locking does probably slow down the aging process ,then I thought is this all in my head ,because I had zipped them do I have a physiological preference for the bagged ones .

I agree with Ray without some sort of experiment ,we will have no empirical data and the whole argument becomes totally subjective ,

I have had some awesome CIgars that were bagged and some that were not,so is that then the variance of Cuban CIgars from within the box and from box to box?

Great thread by the way great discussion

BTW whilst I do age some of my Cigars I tend to live in the moment ,I don't want to spend a life time aging cigars that I may or may not have time to smoke

If you enjoy what you smoke regardless of storage options to me that what it is all about

Cheers OZ(Steve)

[Omskakas]

My 2 cents.

Could it be nitrogen or one of the other components of room air that has a negative effect on cigars? Should cigars be charge with argon??? I can't say. With water containing oxygen, a component necessary for cigar elasticity and long term structural integrity, being required in a certain percentage to keep cigars from deteriorating as a matter of fact, could it not be the water itself that eventually kills the cigar? It is the water content and the minimum necessary for capillary action that effects the formation of mold in other organic matter. Could it not be bacteria or other organisms?

Saying that oxygen is the enemy is easy but until it is proven I have to go with what I know. What I know is that the majority of cigars that I have smoked have never been in long term contact with an impervious membrane and have likely never seen a vacuum. I have smoked some great cigars! Could they have been improved? Perhaps yes, Could hey have been damaged by the very process that someone unknowingly claimed is an improvement? The answer is also yes. Is the air that one traps in a bag, less than capable of damage? At what molecular level of concentration is oxygen no longer a problem? What is the byproduct of this exchange? Can we measure it?

Oxygen reacts easily with many organic compounds. That's why oxygen was poison for the first lifeforms on Earth and still is to those that live in oxygen free environments. Now the oxygen in air O₂ is somewhat stable molecule. But ozone O₃ is on the other hand very unstable and can quickly oxidice and destroy many organic compounds including those that give odors. That's why O₃ is used to deodorize things. The ozone is just to give an example. There's no O₃ in your humidor (ok, very little is).

Nitrogen N₂, Argon and water H₂O are on the other hand very stable molecules that don't usually react with other molecules, so no worries about them.

My lucky guess would be that oxygen plays least a role in cigar aging process. Some chemical changes are spontaneus and some might require oxygen. Now, I think it has been established well that a ziplock bag is permeable with water vapour, right? If a small molecule like water can enter and exit a ziplock bag, I'd assume that also a small O₂ molecule can do that as well. If the aging process consumes oxygen, I believe enough oxygen can enter the bag and replace it easily. So, my guess is that the thing we're looking for is not caused by lack of oxygen inside ziplock bags but some other thing. What?

Those organic molecules that cause taste and olfactory sense are rather big. Maybe a ziplock bag can keep them inside? When "taste" and "smell" molecules are evaporated from cigars, a ziplock bag can keep them from escaping. Can this "marinade" of molecules affect cigar aging? I know you can test easily if this "marinade" gets formed inside a ziplock bag.

[CanuckSARTech]

... I forgot to note. One must let the cigars rest or purge them before lighting. I can only imagine getting sued because oxygen charged exploding cigars were not considered funny!!! -LOL

I would have to un-bag them myself before passing them out! -the Pig

Send them to Rob as a thank you for him sending you EL's! LOL.

[jedipastor]

I've talked to several cigar makers about the topic of aging cigars. Pete Johnson from Tatuaje was quick to point out that many people don't realize that it's possible for a cigar to get "too much cedar." He said he wasn't sure if it was because cigars absorb more moisture from the cedar (as opposed to the air) or if it is actual physical contact with the cedar. But Pete ages cigars from every vintage that he's made just to further understand the process, and he says there is a definite point (he says 6 years or so for most of his cigars) where they start to get dull in terms of flavor if he leaves them in the cedar boxes. He said that putting them in plastic bags around that 6-year mark or so seems to solve this (I don't believe he seals them), again the "why" is not known for sure. Anyway, interesting stuff.

My personal experience is limited to the last 3 years (before that I didn't "store" cigars). I have personally noticed 2 interesting things (again, it's my experience and my interpretation of it, so grain of salt and all that ...)

1) My cigars do better in cedar boxes (as opposed to dress boxes, unsealed plastic baggies, etc.). By "better" I simply mean noticeably more enjoyable (I don't have a margin of error here, it's anecdotal), when I have something to compare them to. If I had to guess, I'd guess that what's happening is that they are aging a little faster, though it could be argued that they are simply aging "better." But I think it's faster, because there are a few cigars that I don't like fresh, and I've noticed that when stored in cedar they are "ready" sooner.

2) My cigars age better/faster in "coolerdors" than in traditional humidors. I have a number of desktop humis, but the majority of my stash is in large plastic bins that are not quite as airtight as a cooler, but much more so than a traditional cedar humidor. Inside the bins are cigar boxes (mostly cedar boxes) full of cigars. I humidify via a mixture of silica beads and HCM beads, at 65%.

The "coolerdor" approach has at least two differences from a traditional humidor: there is much less air flow, and the cigars in the bins are humidified primarily by the cedar whereas in a traditional humidor the cigars are humidified more directly by the humidifier itself, since the cedar is more permeable (this is my theory, I have no charts, lol).

So I can't tell you for sure why my cigars do better (from my perspective) in bins than in humidors (the cedar theory is the best answer I have), but I can tell you that I"m very happy with my setup I would thank that a large cabinet-style humidor or even a walk-in humidor would yield the same positive results, provided the cigars were still stored inside cedar boxes (as opposed to being left out in the open). Again, just speculation. Hopefully someday I'll have a walk-in and can see for myself, loL!

And BTW, the RASS I'm smoking now is only a year old, and was stored in a dress box ... but it's still quite good! I'm considering moving them into cedar boxes, though.

[PigFish]

I add this just for the edification of those interested!

At some point... your cigars, boxes, air.... loose nose hairs left in your humidor, dead bodies of beetles, that pair of your wife's panties that have been missing, all left in your humidor come to a condition we call ERH. ERH or Equilibrium Relative Humidity is why we use a humidor, and attempt to control its water and heat content.

ERH means that each item in that box you call a humidor that is permeable, desorbs as much water as it adsorbs. It neither takes more nor releases more, theoretically. A change in vapor pressure is required to change the water content of the items inside. Now it is important to know that this does not mean that the amount of water in each element is the same, but that water activity level in each content is the same when we get to equilibrium.

Now someone saying that cedar causes his cigar to loose flavor is a bit fishy to me. I can't deny it of course because if that is the man's empirical evidence, that his cigars taste like crap in 6 years and he says its true then he must have experienced it. But what I can ask is this... Why do you blame the cedar?

What has always bothered me about this endeavor is the ease by which a cigar maker, collector, or smoker can come up with a wild conclusion and simply chooses, or guesses at a culprit. Without any assurance that his guess is correct, he simply adds it to the hearsay of the moment and claims a link. Now I too am guessing, but here is a little food for though.

If taste (the essence or compounds that produce it) traveled on water vapor then a humdior that loses water would be terrible; would it not? If you were always adding water to your humidor, the assumption being that the water was moving from the humidor to another place, and if not into the contents of your cigars and boxes, then into the open space around your humidor, would your cigars not eventually loose all their flavor?

Here is one! Would a dry cigar then be tasteless? Hmmm... how often have you experienced the contrary?

Since we know from science, not hearsay that water moves around in a container in equilibrium, in other words, the molecular activity of your humidor never stops, would it not be at least intuitive that bland cigars, mixed with pungent cigars, would blend the bunch to at least all mediocre cigars?

Are the agents of taste moving around at all? Or is it some molecular change, or chemical reaction that changes cigars? Is it all the above?

I don't know mates, but the good Lord gave me a brain and when something does not gel I won't label it aspic. I am guessing, but my guess says that the agents of taste do not migrate or diffuse on the backs of molecules carried in room air. I think they are embedded and released, or constructed as a matter of combustion. I have never licked a cigar and got the taste of a smoking cigar!

I did not enter this thread to call people right or wrong; just to get those involved in the conversation thinking on their own feet and applying real science and a little common sense, not voodoo bullshit to what we all have noticed about cigars.

Just my 2 cts as usual!!! -Piggy

[Colt45]

Just my 2 cts as usual!!! -Piggy

Ray,

I'm not one of the scientifically / analytically minded members here, and I don't disagree with your position. But I will say that I do feel that

air movement and exposure have an effect on cigars - as oxidation does on any number of materials - steel, wine, etc.

But I guess my bottom line might be this - we have all this science, but with regards to cigars and our perception of cigars, how else can we

apply the science other than by taste.....

[nubchin]

Very interesting discussion here .

I do not know molecule world but a seldom known author here who happens to be a cigar guru here brags about how he stores his cigars . First of all he does not have a humidor nor cooler nor vinotemp ,he just ziplocks all cigars with a water pillow after purchasing and leaves them for a few weeks , after that he pulls out the pillow and ziplocks again sucking out the air and thats it . He mentions that never has had a beetle nor mold , ages well for years .

This method maybe similar to cigar jars of old times which were stored with out any humidification for years .

I personally wouldnt try this but some report there positive experiences .

If aging is considered enhancing flavor by long term storage , the process might be similar to Chinese fermented tea "Puer Tea" which can be aged for a few decades in there brick form or tea cake ( there is a profound reason why the Hong Kong guys are good at aging cigars ,,, just a guess ).

[rfenst]

Anyone care to generally and briefly summarize this thread so i don't have to spend so much time catching up since the last time I posted on it? Someone has got to be in to this thread enough to be able to do this!

[CaptainQuintero]

Just thinking here, if "flavour" is being theorised as being carried away by the movement of either moisture or air. Would a sensible experience be to smoke some of the paper that makes up the inside of a dress box? After long term storage the box certainly smells of tobacco so would it also taste?

It would certainly answer a few questions.

Who wants to experiment for the furthering of science?

[CanuckSARTech]

Just thinking here, if "flavour" is being theorised as being carried away by the movement of either moisture or air. Would a sensible experience be to smoke some of the paper that makes up the inside of a dress box? After long term storage the box certainly smells of tobacco so would it also taste?

It would certainly answer a few questions.

Who wants to experiment for the furthering of science?

Does this step into the "he who smelt it, dealt it" realm????

Great idea, CQ. Be sure to let us know how your results pan out....