Highly contested cigar review!

[PigFish]

Well that just about sums it up, Ray. I won't spend the $$ on them. I can just see myself getting all excited for a "special night", lighting one up and NOT having the expectations meet reality. And with the hype of the line, and especially with production outsourced from El Laguito, it's not going to be the gem it could be if they would have kept production low and quality standards high.

If my $6 cuban cigar is crap, I don't feel bad tossing it and reaching for another.

Yup... smoked it on the 4th. You might say I was looking forward to it.

It is tough to sway me. I think I smoke on a high level day in and day out. Perhaps the competition was not fair!!! I mean they probably produce less ERdM Grades de Espana than they do BF' Kee's!!! -LOL -P

[LeafLover]

Ray, you crack me up!

Long live RG ! Bring back the CE's I say! My boxes won't last forever.

[PigFish]

I repeat, I rate fairly!

All of you are free to own and express your own opinions but please, please don't tell me about mine!!! Case in point. A couple of years ago my friend Bart (from this board) sent me a Bolivar Somthingorother! It was an RE of some sort and I rated it highly. It was a good cigar! I thought it was unique and a wonderful smoke. I said so then, and am happy to repeat it now.

For those who know me I would wager that they would rate me far more objective about cigars than many people. I don't like a lot of bullshit and I don't substitute my opinions as facts and vise versa. I have shaped my hoard of cigars to match my tastes, not to match some marketeers quarterly report. They are a consumable, not an investment. I am just as happy to deride one of my cigars as one of yours and just as easy to complement them. A cigar is just a cigar until it smokes well and proves otherwise. Boxes, bands, hype nor H SA bullshit does not define my integrity or objectivity.

Telling me that I have the taste of a pig is a matter of opinion and if by differing from yours you think so, God bless you! But don't imply that I am dishonest about how I view a cigar. That is insulting.

I have 40 ct. cigars that taste better than these things. Wanna' prove me wrong? You supply the $40 cigar and I will provide the 40 ct cigar. We will chop them up and have members smoke the tobacco in a pipe and rate the tobacco. Best tobacco wins. You will get bragging rights if you win and get to try a good 40 ct. cigar along the way.

Any takers? -the Pig

Oh... after you have spent 20K trying to find that 100 pt EL and settle on one; you email me. I will be here holding my breath... Maybe that will happen when H SA starts buying full page adds in CA.

[jedipastor]

Judging a whole line by smoking 1 cigar is crazy. I don't care if it is $5 or $50 you can't make an accurate judgement on Behike having smoked one example. Having said that, everything is in the eye of the beholder. Piggy's review was funny and I appreciated the humor.

This.

The fact is that I like very few Habanos fresh (within the first year)... very few, like 3 ... the Trin Rob T, Party Short, and the 1 Behike 52 I smoked. Given that it was good (but not worth the price) at that age was, to my way of thinking, a very good sign.

In my experience (albeit very limited compared to most here) with Habanos, most tend to get stronger and fuller in flavor as they get a few years of age on them. If this happens to the Behike (which seems likely to me), then we could be looking at a cigar that would be worth the price to me for an occasional treat.

As they are now, I will be aging the ones I get and am not looking to get more any time soon. If they don't improve for my palate, I won't buy more (and will probably trade what I have). Because a $40+ cigar ought to be recockulously good, period. To my mind, however, I won't rule out any Habano until it's a few years old.

[Wil]

Judging a whole line by smoking 1 cigar is crazy.

Spot on.

[PigFish]

I would say that the sample size argument is in fact the one of the few logical arguments I have read here. Generally it is a good one. With that in mind, one would have to consider what one knows about Cuban cigars, the industry and his experiences with it. We are not talking about smoking one Cuban cigar and condemning it, we are talking about decades of wisdom and empirical experiences leading up to an opinion about how the company is run and the products it manufactures. Whether one is fooled by the words, "new and improved" has a lot to do with the reputation of the company that says it. Whether he has been duped by it before.

This is a nationalized company, there is no Cohiba company! There is no Cohiba brand, other than the name Cohiba. There are no Cohiba employees. The rollers are not even permited to know what they roll as a rule. There is no Cohiba factory. The Cohiba name is good will, blue sky and the sky is not blue for all people all the time. There was a time when Bernie Madoff had a good name! Generally a company that is dishonest, wrought with corruption, that often delivers shoddy products and has issues with everything from supply to consistency is not to be trusted. Do I need to go on?

On any given day a poll can be run around here about Cohiba. Some love them, others don't. Some will say it is an overproduced, overpriced and underwhelming cigar. As a general rule they fit the mould of all overproduce Cuban cigars. JMHO. There are exceptions but I am not banking on this one being one of them. They have already begun to overproduce them, many say that the samples that they have had were disappointing. Disappointing not just based on value, but as a matter of taste.

We can make generalizations about sample size and comment about what it means to learn from a sample, a dozen samples, a hundred or a thousand samples. My assumptions about H SA et al and its 'new' products have been empirically proven to me, time and time again. There is no Cohiba or other brands as we would know them being familiar with private companies... there are just a bunch of cigars in certain sizes we call vitolas, some you may like and others you may not. My experience says this is just a wad of bullshit that H SA has called another 'special' cigar. If one cannot smoke one cigar and call it bad, well amigos one cannot smoke one and call it good either. The ruie has to be bilateral.

I buy a cigar habitually based on what I know about it... not what I don't know about it. It then makes me a creature of habit verses a creature of experiment. I say one that has broad experiences and knows what he likes, pursues what he likes and is skeptical of what he suspects he won't like is a wise person. Others may label him differently.

I say that someone who continues to hit his head against a wall dispite the pain it causes, thinking it will somehow cause a different result next time; well, that person has got a learning disorder!!! I say someone who makes excuses for the discomfort that a duplicative action causes is just a damn fool! Consoling ones self that a cigar may smoke better in 5 years is akin to calling your spare tire gut, love handles!

I may be a lot of things.... cheap bastard, closed minded, set in my ways, prejudiced.... but I am nobody's damn fool!!! I can look in the mirror, or the humidor and see the reality of it. I don't often tell myself, "It will be okay!" Last time someone said that to me, it cost me a pile of coin or caused me lot of pain. Next time someone says, "Let them rest 5 years." Just repeat after me... "It will be okay!" You might as well put it under a pillow with a tooth you lost as a kid.

Cheat me once, shame on you, cheat me twice, shame on me. I think the old adage fits well here. I have had my experiment, and am satisfied. My experience tells me that H SA is not deserving of 3, 4 and 5 chances. If these cigars are on average $25 a piece anyone would be a damn fool to sink $125 bucks into 5 to find a good "one"! A bigger fool pays the money, then waits 5 years to find a good one. If they are not good, and good consistently... well, they are not good consistently and that is all I need to know about them.

My next review... the Grand Reserva! -LOL

Thanks for reading. -Piggy

[Guest rob]

Ray, if the Behike cost 40ct... and was packaged in a SLB.... and had a modest band.... and no pig tail cap.... do you feel you would have judged it exactly the same?

I have no horse in this race... by I am feeling awfully advocating of the devil tonight.

[jedipastor]

The points about HSA being full of bull are spot on, in my opinion. The BS hype-machine is why I don't buy LEs or REs unless several people tell me I it's exceptional. Though the same could be said for advertising of any kind, I think that HSA is a crap organization that only puts out decent cigars because they happen to "own' some of the best tobacco in the world. Any moderately-good bunchero with a decent palate could blend a good cigar with what they have to work with. There is no question in my mind that the cigar world will be much better off once the Cuban people have control over their farms and factories again (not to mention the Cuban nation).

And although I think that judging a cigar based on one stick is unfair, I'll admit I've done it before. The first time I smoked a Padron 45th (a $25US cigar), I thought it was good but not "$25 good." My friends told me that perhaps my palate was off that day (possible), or that I got a bum stick. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like there should be "bum sticks" at $25. Is that fair? Of course not, but it's how I feel.

I didn't have another Padron 45th for over a year, but then I was gifted one and brought it on vacation ... and I was blown away, yes. Now I'd say it's my #1 favorite cigar and if it were cheaper, I'd have 2-3 of them a week (I haven't had a "bum stick" since). So I am VERY glad that I have that cigar a 2nd chance.

[PigFish]

Ray, if the Behike cost 40ct... and was packaged in a SLB.... and had a modest band.... and no pig tail cap.... do you feel you would have judged it exactly the same?

I have no horse in this race... by I am feeling awfully advocating of the devil tonight.

Not exactly and that is part of the point. I don't want to go on and on but I like to be clear.

The tobacco, the taste would be the same judgement. This is just a cigar in my eye, not the eighth wonder of the world. I judged the taste of the cigar with no bias; I always do.

While the review of the cigar was a bit of a joke... I don't typically write about bad cigars, what's the reasoning? Why review a bad cigar; frankly there is no fun in it? Except this one I suppose. -LOL I did make a tongue in cheek, but accurate comment about the looks of the cigar. Frankly it was a beautiful cigar. While I like beautiful cigars, that is not why I smoke them. I would rather have an ugly great cigar than this cigar; a beautiful dud cigar. I rated its looks fairly!

Now to the meat of the matter; the value, the marketing, the hype, the people who make it; I rated them as well. I reviewed them! That is what is different here. I rated value. The value rating must take into account how many good cigars I could have bought, how many of them I could have smoked with the resources wasted on this one. That is value! So that my friend is unique to each cigar.

The process of the review then is exactly the same each time. Each cigar is a blank slate. The cost is the time and money I put into it. The review sheet is filled in regarding the smoking experience, regardless of the cost, the conclusions are drawn about the cigar and that becomes another data point about all that I know of Cuban cigars in general.

I could have gotten a dud. The sample size argument is valid, I have said that. At this price there should be no duds.... The fact that there are duds means that H SA is not doing a good job and this cigar is a waste of my money! Not your money (meaning ones' money), what another likes is none of my business.

I think I made that clear, if not let me know. The cigars performance was rated with no value consideration. The value on the otherhand was surely rated on its performance, cost, and other factors.

-Piggy

[PigFish]

The points about HSA being full of bull are spot on, in my opinion. The BS hype-machine is why I don't buy LEs or REs unless several people tell me I it's exceptional. Though the same could be said for advertising of any kind, I think that HSA is a crap organization that only puts out decent cigars because they happen to "own' some of the best tobacco in the world. Any moderately-good bunchero with a decent palate could blend a good cigar with what they have to work with. There is no question in my mind that the cigar world will be much better off once the Cuban people have control over their farms and factories again (not to mention the Cuban nation).

And although I think that judging a cigar based on one stick is unfair, I'll admit I've done it before. The first time I smoked a Padron 45th (a $25US cigar), I thought it was good but not "$25 good." My friends told me that perhaps my palate was off that day (possible), or that I got a bum stick. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like there should be "bum sticks" at $25. Is that fair? Of course not, but it's how I feel.

I didn't have another Padron 45th for over a year, but then I was gifted one and brought it on vacation ... and I was blown away, yes. Now I'd say it's my #1 favorite cigar and if it were cheaper, I'd have 2-3 of them a week (I haven't had a "bum stick" since). So I am VERY glad that I have that cigar a 2nd chance.

Mate you hit me spot on! YOU GET IT!

Anytime someone wants to waste one, and send it to me I will once more smoke it with an open mind and what I think about the taste might change. The value will still be in question.

I will not buy another.

-Piggy

[Scdalak]

Well that just about sums it up, Ray. I won't spend the $$ on them. I can just see myself getting all excited for a "special night", lighting one up and NOT having the expectations meet reality.

I disagree Dbone, your reasons are exactly why i bought them, and so far so good, i really belive if you can afford its worth having a 10 box, they are simply too good to pass up in my opinion... Not to mention you get the best packaging of all time!! Life is about expectations..... Keep them level at all times!!!

[seamus]

These types of discussions are ridiculous and futile. Closed minded people will never be able to understand anything other than what they believe, which is most often a heavily biased opinion. That sort of thinking is the basis for the placebo effect and the reason why no review that comes from a close minded person can be in any way objective. I just can't take anyone serious that makes blanketed statements rooted in biased opinion.

I also see the "overpriced" argument as very closed minded. There are many things I wouldn't purchase at market price but that doesn't mean I can't see the value inthem. There also also things I can't afford but that doesn't make them overpriced.

I don't get the brands grip either. There are no brands?? That doesn't make sense. Regardless of whether a company is state, private or publicly owed it's still a company and products produced under said company that share qualities and name would be considered brands. Are you saying that vitolas under the same label don't share characteristics? Many of the products we buy today are made in whatever factory comes in with the lowest bid and some share the exact same components. Does this mean many large brands are not real?

If I get to the point where my purchasing decisions are based on how many cigars I can get for the money I'm spending and try to convince myself that more expensive ones aren't worth it I'll have to consider if cigars have become a habit and not something I do just for enjoyment.

I haven't enjoyed ever LE I've tried but I've liked most and the same can be said for regular production sticks as well. I'm happy that I have the opportunity to try vitolas from favorite brands that aren't standard release. The other option is to not get the chance at all since I doubt we'll ever see every brand release all vitolas.

[Colt45]

These types of discussions are ridiculous and futile. Closed minded people will never be able to understand anything other than what they believe, which is most often a heavily biased opinion.

There is close minded, and there is opinionated (and I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive).

Sometimes opinionated comes from a wealth of knowledge accumulated over the years.

[Lotusguy]

I like this discussion. While my experience with the BHK has been much better (I find the BHK52 and 54 to be outstanding), I appreciate hearing the different points of view. At the end of the day, you have to make up your own mind and not let people make it up for you.

[PigFish]

There is close minded, and there is opinionated (and I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive).

Sometimes opinionated comes from a wealth of knowledge accumulated over the years.

You my friend are a smart man! I guess that is one of the reasons why I like you! Concise too. -R

[seamus]

There is close minded, and there is opinionated (and I guess the two aren't mutually exclusive).

Sometimes opinionated comes from a wealth of knowledge accumulated over the years.

Right.. I guess I haven't gotten to the point where my wealth of knowledge tells me that close minded people can be open to new ideas, that their opinions are based on objectivity and they look outside of their preference to judge things fairly. How many years of knowledge will I have to accrue before definitions are subject to opinion?

Sometimes opinionated comes from limiting yourself to what you know and what's comfortable and sometimes it's just an excuse for an inability to look at something from more than one point of view.

I wouldn't say being wise and opinionated are synonymous.

[ramon_cojones]

I like this discussion. While my experience with the BHK has been much better (I find the BHK52 and 54 to be outstanding), I appreciate hearing the different points of view. At the end of the day, you have to make up your own mind and not let people make it up for you.

I tried a 56 and absolutely hated it about 6 months ago. Fast forward to last week when I was smoking a great esplendido I decided to switch with my buddy and his 56 and found it very enjoyable to my surprise (I passed on trying it a few times as he kept egging me on). I don't think anyone here is foolish enough to put too much stock into one person's biased review you just have to try them for yourself to see if you like them. The only ELs I've ever liked are the boli lanceros, 05 punch robusto and phoenicia (haven't had the ra germany belicoso in my humi yet).

[PigFish]

I like this discussion. While my experience with the BHK has been much better (I find the BHK52 and 54 to be outstanding), I appreciate hearing the different points of view. At the end of the day, you have to make up your own mind and not let people make it up for you.

... agree wholeheartedly (except about the cigar). I this is a discussion not a lecture or indoctrination. Some comments lead me to believe I am being misunderstood. I therefore take the time to clarify myself. Don't take my word for it.... Buy them up and smoke them yourself. Rob will love you for it! I am no guru. I am just another consumer rating the products he buys. -

[PigFish]

Right.. I guess I haven't gotten to the point where my wealth of knowledge tells me that close minded people can be open to new ideas, that their opinions are based on objectivity and they look outside of their preference to judge things fairly. How many years of knowledge will I have to accrue before definitions are subject to opinion?

Sometimes opinionated comes from limiting yourself to what you know and what's comfortable and sometimes it's just an excuse for an inability to look at something from more than one point of view.

I wouldn't say being wise and opinionated are synonymous.

If I assume for a moment that the closed minded comment is aimed at me, first I say, you are welcome to your opinion about me; have at it! But I would like to add something; namely the circular argument created by the prejudice that creates the label cast upon me (for sake of the argument) and your ability to be equally dismissive of what I have to say based on that prejudice! Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black to me!!! Want to talk closed minded now?

On my side I have purchased the stick. I have demonstrated a desire to educate myself and expose myself to new things. The closed minded guy has proven by his attempts to show that he is in fact not really closed minded. I voted with my wallet which is far more meaningful than a handful of words. After the experience, I spoke. I paid for the privilege.

If after the experience I am called closed minded I would love for you to define "open minded"... Please!

-Piggy

[PigFish]

Pssst.... Rob!

My review has initiated more comments and views than any other review. I think I win.... -LOL

[Guest rob]

[Colt45]

Right.. I guess I haven't gotten to the point where my wealth of knowledge tells me that close minded people can be open to new ideas, that their opinions are based on objectivity and they look outside of their preference to judge things fairly. How many years of knowledge will I have to accrue before definitions are subject to opinion?

Sometimes opinionated comes from limiting yourself to what you know and what's comfortable and sometimes it's just an excuse for an inability to look at something from more than one point of view.

I wouldn't say being wise and opinionated are synonymous.

Seamus, all your points and opinions are valid - I guess the one area I might disagree with is the futility / ridiculousness of these type of discussions. I find

them to be of personal benefit (perhaps selfishly). If I review one cigar, I can only give my impressions of that one cigar - if I've previously smoked more of

the same, it might give me more context, but I would still take into consideration member comments on this particular cigar to help form a picture - but I

would also, without question, use my own library of past experience to help me determine if this was a cigar for me.

[Ginseng]

If after the experience I am called closed minded I would love for you to define "open minded"... Please!

-Piggy

Well, it would probably involve sock garters, orange marmalade, and a large box of wooden spoons.

Wilkey

[Colt45]

Well, it would probably involve sock garters, orange marmalade, and a large box of wooden spoons.

Whatever you guys are into is fine by me - but with no mention of women.......

Count me out.

[PigFish]

Well, it would probably involve sock garters, orange marmalade, and a large box of wooden spoons.

Wilkey

I think you left out a marionette. Marionettes have no inhibitions and no rigid ideologies!!! -LOL

Ross you are closed minded!!! - Piggy