PigFish Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 +1 to this.Comparing NCs to CCs is not practical, unless you have equal access and spend equal smoking time on both. In the absence of this, a fair comparison is nearly impossible. They should have a separate list just for CCs, and not try to compare the CCs against the relative "goodness" of the NCs. I disagree mate. We all have our favorites. A magazine cannot have favorites not and keep their advertisers. The magazine contributors (writers) can have their favorites and have every right to write about anything they want, good and bad as they see it for any reason including compensation. Comparing cigars of different provenience, different makers, different tobaccos and of different sizes is what we do. We, as cigar aficionados, are all critics in our own rites. By proffering our opinions and labeling cigars as superior and inferior we rate each others tastes by those of our own. This forum and others allows us all to digitally publish our opinions for others to read, follow or reject just like those who author the magazines but presumably without a for profit bias. I see my tastes as superior, not to that of my fellow man, but to me and only to me. We are all equal in that we all prefer our own favorite cigars and are not compelled to smoke based the opinions of another. The only critic that matters is YOU! Everyone is entitled to his own opinion... and those that think that the best cigars are made outside of Isla Cuba just don't have a clue or are just soldiers of fortune and writing for profit!!! (JMHO)
laficion Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Before I start my ranting, I would like to say that I had no intention on posting on this suject because I think that I've already said it all on different occasions here on FOH and I , AGAIN, do not want to start up a new NC vs CC discussion but of course the risk is there. However, I think that this may be interesting to the new and young members on FOH. I would like to start my subject by saying that I have a great respect for Marvin Shankan for being the FIRST to create a Magazine that would focus mainly on cigars and everything that surrounds the passion of cigar smoking but also for being the main force behind the cigar boom of the 90's and the inspiring drive for others to create cigar related publications around the world, this was never done before . Shanken and Suckling have always been cuban cigar smokers, all you need to do is read their first Issues to understand that, Suckling in London as euorpeen editor and Shankan in New York, they didn't have any difficulties in smoking the cigars they loved. All it took was a trip to Cuba in 1991 to spark up the Idea of a magazine. At the same time in the U.S., cigar production and cigar companys were at a record low and most of all the brands were very close to shuting down or have already closed up shop and what was left was being bought up by the big tobacco groups. After almost 40 years of an embargo on Cuba, all that was left in the states were souvenirs of Clear Havanas or Pre-Embargo Candella Havanas. The best cigars that you could buy at the time were King Edwards or Muriels or even better, Dutchmasters.Up until the 70's & 80's, everything that the general public had to know about a great cigar were in the TV commercials. When the commercials stoped, there were still the ads in the magazines but that too was over and then, in 92 came CA , starting a new fashion with cigars and cigar lifestyle, a new look for a new generation of smokers, the magazine is new, it has looks, talks about what ? Woww, Cuban cigars ? cool !!!! small shops in Miami making cigars like in Cuba ? WHO ? How do I get some ? Hey, I saw an ad where they say that tobacco from the DR. is even better then in Cuba, rolled by expert cubans, in the cuban style, with cuban taste, etc etc . The magazine is a success story, the small shop making cigars in Miami is getting known, getting bigger, better ads in the magazine means better sales, better sales means building new factories in the DR. or HON. or even better, in NIC. While the rest of the world is just smoking Cubans, in the U.S. they have created the NEW NON-CUBAN, bigger and better but with Cuban this, Cuban that, Cuban better then Cuban. Now the big companies are using very good tobaccos from the DR. or Hon . or Nic and CA is the top promoter of all these new brands. Cigars in the U.S. have now become very Americano-American basiclly, only in the U.S. Even in the DR., Hon., or Nic., the locals don't smoke these cigars, they smoke other blends. At CA, Suckling is head of the Cuban department but new guys coming in are mostly attuned to smoking NC's. With this new success, the NC's are back at it again,like the old American tobacco trusts in the old days of pre-embargo and Clear Havana days, saying that they're the best this side of Havana, that they are making the best blends and the best cigars in the world but on the other hand, always putting Cuba as a reference and always putting up front that they used to make cigars in Cuba but now they are making better cigars elsewhere with cuban seeds, cuban rollers and not even talking about the country in which the tobacco is grown. Again as before, misinforming and miseducating the new generations of cigar smokers in America. What they don't say is that their cigars, after years of expensive marketing and pushing, are smoked elsewhere in the world as a curiousity Item more then a real fulfilling smoke. Other then certain northern countries in Europe, Russia, and Eastern countries, no one is really interested in these cigars that are mainly blended to suit the American taste. In most of these countries, the NC's have replaced the cheap cigars made up of tobacco traditionally smoked from the old Dutch colonies such as Sumatra or Java but a majority of cigar smokers in the world still enjoys the Cuban cigar . The birth of CA was oxygen to a dying industry in the U.S., new perspectives for the cigar market, new investments in other tobacco countries in latin America, new jobs,new possibilities for the cuban exiles, new generations to form on cigar smoking, another chance to try out, flavored cigars, green wrappers, also, always something new, never keep the same cigar too long on the market. Keep hammering away how wonderful it used to be in Cuba before Castro. give the market new thrills, give them lots of new gimmicks, get the best ratings and scores on CA, pay for the best ads, keep the Fuentes and Patel on the roads but keep everyone interested in the NC's. THAT is the most important thing, keeping everyone interested, or else !!! In short, that's what they are doing with this ,25 best cigars of the year, they don't have a choice. They are all commited and linked to each other. I'm sure that was the reason why Suckling left, he couldn't take it anymore. He's tasted better and knows better from living overseas so long. People who drink Coke can and will upgrade to drinking great beer or great wines, those who drink great wines and beers DO NOT upgrade to drink Coke, unless you keep telling them and convincing them that wines and beer are not better. I enjoy a fresh Coke in the summer like anyone else, for the fun. however, I do not compare a Coke with a great wine by putting Coke No. 1 and a great Burgundy No. 9 in my " Best 25 drinks of the year". CA is not the bible of Cigars, they never said they were, they just act as if. Other Cigar magazines in the world are not bibles either, they never said they were, they also just act as if. We are all adults who smoke and enjoy cigars and we smoke what we like best, If it's Cubans, great If it's NC's, great, If it's from other origin, great, just don't confuse one for the other by putting them all in the same bag. Be curious, don't take anyone's word, find out for yourself, the world is bigger then CA's "25 best cigars of the year ". Again, only my 2 Euros worth of an opinion
Montaigut Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Be curious, don't take anyone's word, find out for yourself,... @laficionWise words and perspective; refreshing and so not us/them!
Puros Y Vino Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Every year when this list comes out. CA takes a beating in their own forums. Whether it be what the actual list is composed of, how cigars are rated, the linkage between ads and appearances in the top 25, or even if James Suckling's bad haircut figures into the ratings. We shouldn't be too surprised that NC's do so well in their magazine. First off. Cuban goods are illegal to own for US citizens. No need to dedicate the majority of your magazine's content to cigars that most of your US subscribers cannot get easily. They rate and review CC's for the die-hards that have their sources. Otherwise, NC's get the most print and definitely have the ads locked down. I've never seen Habanos SA ads in CA. I've seen plenty of them in European Cigar Cult Journal (great mag BTW). The top 25, for purely practical reasons needs to include a lot of NC's. Many from their top advertisers and for their general subscribers CC accessibility challenges. Otherwise, it's a very good magazine that touts a very enjoyable hobby to those in the know. Conversely, seeing it on the shelves of your local bookstore flies in the face of the anti-smoking lobby. In an industry decimated by legislation, its good to see NC and CC producers fight the good fight. As I write this, the Cohiba BHK 52 is their number one cigar. Being in Canada where CC's are legal, I can't get my damn hands on one!! So what hope does the average CA subscriber have? Take the list with a grain of salt. I've tried some very good NC's as a result.
Colt45 Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Again, only my 2 Euros worth of an opinion Guy, impassioned as always I think though, that I'd personally compare cola to cola, beer to beer, wine to wine. And though I don't know, I tend to doubt that many average Cubans are walking around smoking Behikes (who are HSA marketing all these jaw breakers to? :-)
laficion Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Guy, impassioned as always Thank you Ross I tend to doubt that many average Cubans are walking around smoking Behikes I think that they should be selling at every st. corner by now Ross, but without the beautiful glass top .
Dbone Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Great read Guy, and good food for thought I read the HU2, their number 9 cigar, was from box MOA MAR 10. Late '09 early '10 cigars are trending very well.
thechenman Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Every year when this list comes out. CA takes a beating in their own forums. Whether it be what the actual list is composed of, how cigars are rated, the linkage between ads and appearances in the top 25, or even if James Suckling's bad haircut figures into the ratings. We shouldn't be too surprised that NC's do so well in their magazine. First off. Cuban goods are illegal to own for US citizens. No need to dedicate the majority of your magazine's content to cigars that most of your US subscribers cannot get easily. They rate and review CC's for the die-hards that have their sources. Otherwise, NC's get the most print and definitely have the ads locked down. I've never seen Habanos SA ads in CA. I've seen plenty of them in European Cigar Cult Journal (great mag BTW). The top 25, for purely practical reasons needs to include a lot of NC's. Many from their top advertisers and for their general subscribers CC accessibility challenges. Otherwise, it's a very good magazine that touts a very enjoyable hobby to those in the know. Conversely, seeing it on the shelves of your local bookstore flies in the face of the anti-smoking lobby. In an industry decimated by legislation, its good to see NC and CC producers fight the good fight. As I write this, the Cohiba BHK 52 is their number one cigar. Being in Canada where CC's are legal, I can't get my damn hands on one!! So what hope does the average CA subscriber have? Take the list with a grain of salt. I've tried some very good NC's as a result. Well said...
PigFish Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Before I start my ranting, I would like to say that I had no intention on posting on this suject because I think that I've already said it all on different occasions here on FOH and I , AGAIN, do not want to start up a new NC vs CC discussion but of course the risk is there. However, I think that this may be interesting to the new and young members on FOH.I would like to start my subject by saying that I have a great respect for Marvin Shankan for being the FIRST to create a Magazine that would focus mainly on cigars and everything that surrounds the passion of cigar smoking but also for being the main force behind the cigar boom of the 90's and the inspiring drive for others to create cigar related publications around the world, this was never done before . Shanken and Suckling have always been cuban cigar smokers, all you need to do is read their first Issues to understand that, Suckling in London as euorpeen editor and Shankan in New York, they didn't have any difficulties in smoking the cigars they loved. All it took was a trip to Cuba in 1991 to spark up the Idea of a magazine. At the same time in the U.S., cigar production and cigar companys were at a record low and most of all the brands were very close to shuting down or have already closed up shop and what was left was being bought up by the big tobacco groups. After almost 40 years of an embargo on Cuba, all that was left in the states were souvenirs of Clear Havanas or Pre-Embargo Candella Havanas. The best cigars that you could buy at the time were King Edwards or Muriels or even better, Dutchmasters.Up until the 70's & 80's, everything that the general public had to know about a great cigar were in the TV commercials. When the commercials stoped, there were still the ads in the magazines but that too was over and then, in 92 came CA , starting a new fashion with cigars and cigar lifestyle, a new look for a new generation of smokers, the magazine is new, it has looks, talks about what ? Woww, Cuban cigars ? cool !!!! small shops in Miami making cigars like in Cuba ? WHO ? How do I get some ? Hey, I saw an ad where they say that tobacco from the DR. is even better then in Cuba, rolled by expert cubans, in the cuban style, with cuban taste, etc etc . The magazine is a success story, the small shop making cigars in Miami is getting known, getting bigger, better ads in the magazine means better sales, better sales means building new factories in the DR. or HON. or even better, in NIC. While the rest of the world is just smoking Cubans, in the U.S. they have created the NEW NON-CUBAN, bigger and better but with Cuban this, Cuban that, Cuban better then Cuban. Now the big companies are using very good tobaccos from the DR. or Hon . or Nic and CA is the top promoter of all these new brands. Cigars in the U.S. have now become very Americano-American basiclly, only in the U.S. Even in the DR., Hon., or Nic., the locals don't smoke these cigars, they smoke other blends. At CA, Suckling is head of the Cuban department but new guys coming in are mostly attuned to smoking NC's. With this new success, the NC's are back at it again,like the old American tobacco trusts in the old days of pre-embargo and Clear Havana days, saying that they're the best this side of Havana, that they are making the best blends and the best cigars in the world but on the other hand, always putting Cuba as a reference and always putting up front that they used to make cigars in Cuba but now they are making better cigars elsewhere with cuban seeds, cuban rollers and not even talking about the country in which the tobacco is grown. Again as before, misinforming and miseducating the new generations of cigar smokers in America. What they don't say is that their cigars, after years of expensive marketing and pushing, are smoked elsewhere in the world as a curiousity Item more then a real fulfilling smoke. Other then certain northern countries in Europe, Russia, and Eastern countries, no one is really interested in these cigars that are mainly blended to suit the American taste. In most of these countries, the NC's have replaced the cheap cigars made up of tobacco traditionally smoked from the old Dutch colonies such as Sumatra or Java but a majority of cigar smokers in the world still enjoys the Cuban cigar . The birth of CA was oxygen to a dying industry in the U.S., new perspectives for the cigar market, new investments in other tobacco countries in latin America, new jobs,new possibilities for the cuban exiles, new generations to form on cigar smoking, another chance to try out, flavored cigars, green wrappers, also, always something new, never keep the same cigar too long on the market. Keep hammering away how wonderful it used to be in Cuba before Castro. give the market new thrills, give them lots of new gimmicks, get the best ratings and scores on CA, pay for the best ads, keep the Fuentes and Patel on the roads but keep everyone interested in the NC's. THAT is the most important thing, keeping everyone interested, or else !!! In short, that's what they are doing with this ,25 best cigars of the year, they don't have a choice. They are all commited and linked to each other. I'm sure that was the reason why Suckling left, he couldn't take it anymore. He's tasted better and knows better from living overseas so long. People who drink Coke can and will upgrade to drinking great beer or great wines, those who drink great wines and beers DO NOT upgrade to drink Coke, unless you keep telling them and convincing them that wines and beer are not better. I enjoy a fresh Coke in the summer like anyone else, for the fun. however, I do not compare a Coke with a great wine by putting Coke No. 1 and a great Burgundy No. 9 in my " Best 25 drinks of the year". CA is not the bible of Cigars, they never said they were, they just act as if. Other Cigar magazines in the world are not bibles either, they never said they were, they also just act as if. We are all adults who smoke and enjoy cigars and we smoke what we like best, If it's Cubans, great If it's NC's, great, If it's from other origin, great, just don't confuse one for the other by putting them all in the same bag. Be curious, don't take anyone's word, find out for yourself, the world is bigger then CA's "25 best cigars of the year ". Again, only my 2 Euros worth of an opinion You have a very good perspective Guy. I have never really looked at CA as a market maker as I smoked cigars before ever seeing one of the rags. While I would like to dispute your claim, thinking that a magazine was actually responsible for the '90 cigar boom in the States, the logic is sound and I do recall reading it, even subsribing to it for a few years in the begining. I suppose I judge things for how they are now. I look at the Cuban market the same. H SA does not get credit, but scorn for canceling cigars that they once made well for ones that are not to my taste today. I suppose I don't see how making a statement about how they once were fits into how they rated 25 cigars last year. Of course I do smoke CC's and not others but did use the magazine as an inspiration to branch out and play the field of cigars. I still don't like the contemporay magazine, but you reminded me of where I was 20 years ago and refreshed my perspective. All the time I have been writing this I have been looking for, and wanting a logical argument to contrast your theory. Why, because of what the magazine has become? But I'll be damned if I can come with anything to counter you with. I think you are bloody well pretty much right on the money here. DAMN, you! I still won't buy the bloody thing... but you are really right on the mark with the historical perspective! Good thinking mate, cheers. -Ray
Van55 Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 1. I thought we all agreed last year (and the year before and the year before and the year before) that CA's annual top 25 list is worthwile only as a conversation starter and as publicity for the magazine. 2. I am not an apologist for CA's rating system. On the contrary, I think it's worthless. That said, I am of the view (expressed elsewhere previously) that one's palate is conditioned to appreciate what it expects. If one smokes predominantly non-Cuban cigars, one can find smoking Cuban cigars uninspiring or even off-putting -- at least at first. I know that was the case when I first experimented with them. So accusing CA's ratings as having a pro-advertiser, economic bias, may well be unfair. I really do tend to believe the powers that be who claim that the tastings are truly blind. (Note that one could hardly help but identify the Behike 52 , for example, for what it is even without its wrapper.)
cigaraholic Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Imagine the US had an embargo on French products, how well would French wines score in WS. I'd like to say Marvin has to eat to..........but I can't. It's really the US Cigar Aficionado, and as Guy pointed out they've put thousands of people work in many countries.
laficion Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Imagine the US had an embargo on French products, how well would French wines score in WS. cigaraholic, Last time was a few years ago, Roquefort and other cheeses, wines and Champagne were outrageously taxed for import into the U.S. Regularly that's what they do when the French say things or do things that pisses them off I thought that you would have been aware of this .
cigaraholic Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Guy, your right, how could I forget those freedom fries?
laficion Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Guy, your right, how could I forget those freedom fries? Touché mon ami
CanuckSARTech Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Before I start my ranting........Again, only my 2 Euros worth of an opinion Excellent post, Guy. Well said and well put. The analogy between Coke and wine illustrates the "top 25" quandry perfectly. Very well put. Thanks for putting that out there.
CanuckSARTech Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 As I write this, the Cohiba BHK 52 is their number one cigar. Being in Canada where CC's are legal, I can't get my damn hands on one!! So what hope does the average CA subscriber have? A bunch sitting in the LCDH in Windsor. Ridiculously pricey, though. I'll probably pick some up cheaper in Havana soon, if I can find some easily down there.
samb Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Before I discovered CCs, the ratings and info CA put out was gold. I remember looking at the top 25s and thinking about how nice it would be to try all the NCs in there, for I had no idea I would ever try a Cuban, and therefore only read about them for novelty. I think the magazine is a great tool for the beginning cigar smoker, it does offer all the info and ratings on popular NCs, and gets their name out there to the less-informed. Had it not been for browsing through the pages of CA, I would probably still be smoking Macadoodoos, and have very little grasp of the premium cigar industry. The mag and the ratings IMO definitely fit their demographic and for that, I have much respect for the publication. Now, having discovered the CC, I find disappointment in the magazine and ratings for all the reason that many others do, however, I am no longer in their demographic. I have expanded beyond trying numerous different NCs and relying on advertising to catch my attention. At this point, I pretty much know what I like, and I know its not uber-expensive Padrons, its mid-priced CCs, and for the info that I need/want about those, there is a great forum here for that!
kcheek Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Now, having discovered the CC, I find disappointment in the magazine and ratings for all the reason that many others do, however, I am no longer in their demographic. I have expanded beyond trying numerous different NCs and relying on advertising to catch my attention. At this point, I pretty much know what I like, and I know its not uber-expensive Padrons, its mid-priced CCs, and for the info that I need/want about those, there is a great forum here for that! Well said!
CigarZen Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Before I discovered CCs, the ratings and info CA put out was gold. I remember looking at the top 25s and thinking about how nice it would be to try all the NCs in there, for I had no idea I would ever try a Cuban, and therefore only read about them for novelty. I think the magazine is a great tool for the beginning cigar smoker, it does offer all the info and ratings on popular NCs, and gets their name out there to the less-informed. Had it not been for browsing through the pages of CA, I would probably still be smoking Macadoodoos, and have very little grasp of the premium cigar industry. The mag and the ratings IMO definitely fit their demographic and for that, I have much respect for the publication.Now, having discovered the CC, I find disappointment in the magazine and ratings for all the reason that many others do, however, I am no longer in their demographic. I have expanded beyond trying numerous different NCs and relying on advertising to catch my attention. At this point, I pretty much know what I like, and I know its not uber-expensive Padrons, its mid-priced CCs, and for the info that I need/want about those, there is a great forum here for that! Well put!
Montaigut Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 The mag and the ratings IMO definitely fit their demographic and for that, I have much respect for the publication. Well put. Smoke and let smoke. ..
TankerT Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Cuban Cigars have only so many brands. It's not hard to find out which of the brands are of lower quality... and remember it... and which are good or great. Just read a few forums... try them... etc... With Non-Cubans... there are about half a bazillion brands. And many brands have sub-brands of some sort. CA is one way to at least get a gauge on which brands/types are not terrible... So, normally a highly rated cigar might not be great... but it probably isn't going to be of bad quality/construction...
Wil Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 The reviews certainly are a joke. Take the december 2010 issue for example. The lowest score they gave is for a Dominican robusto a 83 points. The review: 'A richly colored cigar that smokes evenly. It starts out herbal and a bit bland before turning tangy with amonia notes and a mushroom taste'. Bland. Tangy. Amonia. Mushroom. Very good to excellent (80-89)!
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