A look at old laundry!

PigFish · December 7, 2010

Recently a member inquired as to what I had against EL and RE cigars. How could one not know I asked myself? As I did not want the member's world to tilt off its axis, nor did I want the member to continue to lose sleep over the query; I wrote the following reply. Thanks for reading.

My belief about EL’s goes way back. It is not only about EL’s, it is about cigars in general and CC’s expressly. It is pretty difficult to go into too much detail in one email, a diatribe if you will, about all that I think and believe about Cuban limited cigars but I can give you a summery.

They are a rip off!

Rip off of course is a relative term. If you like them and if you are willing to pony up for them, then by definition they are not a rip off to you and we simply see things differently.

So it is about my tastes. It is also about my values and my valuation of a cigar and in turn, the smoking experience. The smoking experience after all is what cigar smoking is about to me. How good my smoking experience will be, how long it will be, what I pay for it, how much of what I pay for is wasted; I can go on and on rhetorically speaking about what a smoking experience means to me, ad nauseam, but that is not what you asked me about. The cigar experience is however the foundation of my set of beliefs. What is a smoking experience to you; to any one of us? If you like a certain cigar, then beyond curiosity what I have to say about any cigar should be of no consequence. Rhetorically speaking, why do you give a **** about what I think about a certain cigar? I don’t smoke to please you and you should not be smoking to please me; right? It is okay if we like different cigars. While it is been my pleasure to mentor many a novice on the topic of the CC, I don’t believe in smoking gurus. I am not one! Neither are any of my friends that smoke... nor MRN, Zino Davidoff, or anyone else for that matter. They are all people like you and I; all liking what they like regardless of us. My theory states that YOU matter! What YOU like matters!!! Where we will come together or diverge will be if we agree on what we like or don’t like. If I like something or not is no reason to expect another to. But similarities in tastes, well, that is another matter. When two or more smokers have a feel for the tastes of another, they can sometimes gauge their own tastes by that of another.

The smoking experience is what it is all about. What do you define as a quality smoking experience? For me it matters little what I smoke as long as what I smoke is good or better yet, excellent! I don’t care about the bands, the boxes, any image associated with a specific cigar, what I care about is how the cigar tastes and if it satisfies my desire. I tailor my cigars to my mood and my timeframe. It is not that I can look at a cigar and say, “this one is going to taste like pear blossoms and Brandywine and I am in the mood for both,” because I can’t do that. I am looking for one that will fit the time that I can allot to smoking (I am not a wasteful person) and one that could deliver the aspects, roughly, of the last one that I smoked from the same litter. This would imply that cigars have a profile. I am not really a believer in this theory, but there are some similarities between cigars in the same box at least some of the time and I am willing to work with that. I want a good cigar however, all the time. It matters not to me if the cigar is different or the same as the last one out of the box. What matters is, will it be an excellent cigar?

I am about getting the best smoking experience then. A smoking experience goes beyond the cigar itself of course but that is not an aspect of the conversation that you inquired about. A smoking experience does however have many factors that contribute to, or detract from the event. One aspect is time. One other aspect is money. I don’t worry about the money I burn up... it is not the trepidation of spending money on a consumable that represents the money aspect. The money aspect is value and I will get to that next.

I posted a reply to a new member not long ago about how that member valuates objects outside of the smoking world in terms of cigars. I added to that by saying that the smoking experience, when being viewed quantitatively is a function of money and time as well as enjoyment. I mean if I like to smoke, and if I smoke often, I have historically been a 1000 stick a year smoker (lesser so now), I must spend a handsome amount on my cigars. My time is also worth something to me, therefore I want to spend it wisely. Although a bit off topic, money is also a factor of time. I spend my life force earning it. When it is spent on a cigar I expect the experience to be a good one. Getting the best experience for the money then is important to me. If two cigars that take the same time to smoke, and provide the same pleasure, have different costs then the one with the lowest cost is of greater value to me! This is counterintuitive I understand, and perhaps not easy to explain outside of a function. I see many aspects of life mathematically so for me it is easy. If I can get more quality smoking time/dollar spent, then my value for those cigars is greater. Value is not money. It is a function of time, money and enjoyment.

So why then do you think I have something against EL cigars? Frankly they are no better than, and often less appealing to me than carefully selected regular production cigars. What’s more, they are a hell of a lot more expensive. That is what I have against them; they are no better than regular production cigars. They are simply trendy, expensive cigars designed to get me to spend more money per gram of tobacco. They are a marketing gimmick! Because they have historically underperformed for me and they have also historically cost me more per stick, they have devalued my experience/value model.

Rob and I go head to head about marketing. Why, because it is wasted on me? I don’t want to be convinced to buy anything. While product awareness is fine, the packaging and hype associated with the EL/RE is simply money wasted on me. I have little or no interest in the packaging. I don’t smoke the packaging! I know what a good cigar is and it is not defined by a certain package, price or marketing plan. Do you think the package affects the smoking experience? Well if you do, we disagree again!

What do you know of the way CC’s are made? Many rollers are clueless about what they are rolling. Why? So they don’t steal them and sell them on the street. With that in mind the roller uses a certain amount of tobacco to produce a certain number of cigars of the same quality of any other cigars he/she rolls on a given day. Where is the rational for a higher price on these cigars based on this practice? It does not exist. Pulling special rollers together for a limited Cohiba is a nice idea. I think it ads speculative value, but of course my value is a function of many things and a specific roller is not one of them. The damn idiots at H SA et al can’t even keep that honest! Read Rob’s thread about Behikes.

History; what about it? Is a car such as a Porsche worth the money because of its reputation? It certainly is a factor. While I think that analogies regarding cigars are often poor ones, the point is about the value of a reputation. Why is a petit Bolivar EL worth more than a BBF? This is a quiz! It isn't!!! While I understand curiosity and knowledge based on experience, why would someone buy an untested cigar, some of lesser sizes than a well known sibling with a proven track record and pay twice the price? My answer. You have to be a damn fool to do so! I have been that damn fool more times than I care to mention. Being a “damn fool” has been experienced by me personally so I speak of the experience empirically and not theoretically.

We have covered a lot and I have to get to feeding my horses. I have likely left out a lot. The poor performance that I have experienced with EL’s/RE’s, the poor construction I have experienced, the inconsistencies in the final products and I am sure other issues that make them not only not worth the money, but not as good as regular production cigars.

Lastly I am going to leave you with this. I will give you the short idea of a topic that I have been meaning to post about for sometime now. Does limited production... real limited production cigars as a concept have merit? You will be surprised by my answer. The answer is yes! Real limited production is not attempting to construct 100k cigars for a deadline to meet the super expensive boxes that you just produced. Limited production is the need for 5 or 10k cigars where the cigars are not all that common or popular, yet produced in small batches to satisfy the niche. Take Rafeal Gonzalez cigars for example. The truth is I have been enjoying limited production cigars, like the RG line for years. I have been getting a bargain on them (relative to more common cigars) because they are not marketed, hyped and little known. What is more, because these cigars are only made occasionally and because there is not a great demand for them, they are produced at leisure (without a dated band for a deadline) when the materials and the manpower is available. While they might produce more cigars than the current demand, the cigars are not over produced to meet an excess demand. I believe the overproduction and the deadlines lead to sketchy results and I see EL’s as the prime example of such folly. Well made and outside of the high demand for the more popular smokes is where the true Limited Production cigars live. These are the real EL’s. These: the Cohiba CE, the Monte Especial, the LGC line, the RG line are the best EL’s. These are the best value in Cuban cigars, some with and some without the high price tag.

Ultimately, to see the best cigars that are made on Isla Cuba replaced by lesser cigars, ones without reputation, ones at a higher cost, ones with a lesser value... these are the reasons I hate EL’s.

Cheers mate! I hope I did not disappoint! Best, Ray

If you don’t mind, subject to some minor editing, I may just post this!

cigcars · December 7, 2010

jacksfull · December 7, 2010

Agree wholeheartedly. The cost/time+experience=value equation means much more than high-zoot flash.

Omskakas · December 7, 2010

Piggy, this is you:

:rolleyes:

genevapics · December 7, 2010

Bravo! :rolleyes: :D

asmith · December 7, 2010

I'm sure that was a great read, any chance of a short summary Piggy, it was all too long for me?

El Presidente · December 7, 2010

Piggy...you know we agree on 90% of crap

I don't begrudge a HSA LE release as long as it is consistent, excellent, unique and limited. If it could achieve that then the price is a secondary consideration personally. Unfortunately few have ticked the first three boxes and it has been a long time since the fourth was ticked. In the end the market determines the success of the program and the program is struggling. They will either adjust or continue to be bogged down due to an inability to adapt. Lack of leadership and understanding is the core problem.

I agree in not discontinuing product but rather producing 25000 of those cigars in batches to keep the loyal lovers satisfied. 25000 appears to be the minimum run they will entertain these days and I am OK with that. If Partagas Serie De Connaisseur no 1/2/3 were still produced in such numbers none of us would complain even if the price went up slightly.

HSA ills can be fixed. They have produced over this decade some great new releases but there have been some massively dumb decisions made as well.

They turn into the new decade in some ways better positioned than the last. Tobacco reserves are high and it is of good quality. Construction and blend quality continues to improve.

There are however some huge challenges: management, corruption, incentivising the workforce, diminishing core markets, developing meaningful and engaging marketing plans, maintining history.

The challenges call for a special person to lead from the front. Someone such as Nicolas Hayek who saved the Swiss Watch industry in the face of Japanese digital watches in the 70's. I live in hope.

anacostiakat · December 7, 2010

ADD huh?

I found this a fairly solid read and sound logic. I think that if you can afford something then it is not a rip off to you. That is really all that matters.

As a rule I don't chase these things any more. But occasionally I find myself intrigued by a marca that I like in general and therefore am willing to consider and even actually get a RE or possibly an EL. Although I cant remember the last time, and would have to look it up, that I bought an EL.

I like strong opinions. Right or wrong.

Thanks.

danclough · December 7, 2010

Ladies and Gentleman, the War and Peace of anti-LE/RE forum posts.

MrGlass · December 7, 2010

Piggy, thank you.

I make an effort to read your topics, as they are generally quite interesting. This was no exception.

Nick.

habone · December 8, 2010

Another dissertation by Piggy...geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee