Opinion Poll...

[PigFish]

Not that we have not discussed this to ad nauseam, but here it is again!

I am not looking for what you think of EL's, unless you feel absolutely necessary about posting it! What I want is your opinion as to what the creation of the EL market has done for the CC industry. Is it as intended and what was the real motivation behind their creation? For example: were they created to exemplify the epitome of the cigar makers art, or just make more money? As the creator of the EL, lets pretend it was your idea here for a moment, what have you created, why did you create it and was your intention realized?

Lastly, do you believe that your vision is H SA's (et al) vision as well?

Thanks for sharing. -Piggy

[cigarros]

I think any businesses purpose - profit. Whether not so? In this series (ER & EL) cubans earn more than usually. And if cigars buy why'em not to do it? Mr.Piggy I completely agree with your opinion but exit from such situation I see in prompting to cubans how not to do nonsenses.

While the new management will penetrate into current problems and will try to solve them will pass years. It's necessary to speak about it through Association of Independent Sellers.

Just my 5 cents....

[El Presidente]

were they created to exemplify the epitome of the cigar makers art, or just make more money?

It was initially both. Lost their way Circa 2005/6. Now certainly only in the later.

You asked the wrong question Piggy. It should be prefaced " You are CEO of HSA, a company short of money with a psychotic business partner always demanding more.

With this background there is only going to be one answer to your question.

[Ken Gargett]

It was initially both. Lost their way Circa 2005/6.

agree with this though it was a toe in the water thing to begin with. hence why they missed one of their early years. they simply were not prepared for the success and didn't have the tobacco ready. and i'm not too sure re the money in the early days, though it no doubt played some role. the early ones were very cheap.

i think one of the problems has been that it was successful and they had little idea how to handle it so some dill came up with the idea of doing a dozen or two RR's every year as well. that dilutes the message, and presumably quality tobacco. gee, this worked so let's quickly suck the life out of it any way we can. if it had been managed better, LE's might still have an aura of respectibility instead of now being seen as the cuban version of the department stores starting christmas in september.

in the early days, there was much excitement to see what the new LE's would be each year. now, who cares? and i think that is partly or largely due to the plethora of RR's as well.

an occasional decent release these days but i went from buying most of the early LE's to very rarely buying any now.

[Guest rob]

I tend to agree with the chronology of when they went to ****.

I used to buy / try them regularly. In fact, some of them rank amongst my favourite smokes... but I have only tried one of last years releases (did love it though - Magnum 48) ... and none of this years.

[CigarmanTim]

I knew who posted this Piggy just by reading the subject... lol Go El

[Dbone]

Like many major brands, you must aim to maximize profit potential. What is the market going to pay for your products value? I believe Habanos has done well with the EL program as they sell out relatively soon of the yearly EL's. The problem with the program is it's started to slide recently so they're not really worth the value asked.

A reserved, limited blend with aged tobacco, highlighting the best of what that marc has to offer is a solid idea. I for one, will pay top dollar for a top product but ive started to find the top product within standard production. Habanos should deliver with the EL program or drop it all together. It's possible the program is getting to large. On the other hand the EL's have always aged well if you can put time into them. To most though, that's just not acceptable. I have 3 boxes ELs that I have no desire to smoke because i get disappointed, though in 4 or 5 years I'll bet the house they'll be marvelous.

[MontrealRon]

agree with this though it was a toe in the water thing to begin with. hence why they missed one of their early years. they simply were not prepared for the success and didn't have the tobacco ready. and i'm not too sure re the money in the early days, though it no doubt played some role. the early ones were very cheap.

i think one of the problems has been that it was successful and they had little idea how to handle it so some dill came up with the idea of doing a dozen or two RR's every year as well. that dilutes the message, and presumably quality tobacco. gee, this worked so let's quickly suck the life out of it any way we can. if it had been managed better, LE's might still have an aura of respectibility instead of now being seen as the cuban version of the department stores starting christmas in september.

in the early days, there was much excitement to see what the new LE's would be each year. now, who cares? and i think that is partly or largely due to the plethora of RR's as well.

an occasional decent release these days but i went from buying most of the early LE's to very rarely buying any now.

Exactly.

The early ELs were amazing smokes, sold at regular prices, and styled to pre-1995 standards.

They are only now reaching their full potential.

Those who ignored the heavy criticism of the so-called experts and laid some down are laughing today!

The R&J and Partagas ELs from '04 are only starting to hit their stride, and will have a brilliant future.

No doubt, the early Montes and Cohibas are at least as good.

Most everything from '05 till now has been overpriced and largely forgetable.

Anyone looking for old-style quality these days will do better with well chosen regular production,

like Partagas 8-9-8, or most any Bolivar.

As I write this, I am smoking a May '07 8-9-8.

Way too young, but what a powerhouse!

IMHO, the cigars from '06-'10 that will be most memorable five or ten years from now

will be those with one band.

[Ken Gargett]

Like many major brands, you must aim to maximize profit potential. What is the market going to pay for your products value? I believe Habanos has done well with the EL program as they sell out relatively soon of the yearly EL's. The problem with the program is it's started to slide recently so they're not really worth the value asked.

understand all this but you have to balance it with whether or not it is a long term item. but gouging prices over the last few years, and not maintaining the very high levels of quality from the early days (in most cases, sorry ray), they are turning off those that were fans (those that were not from the beginning are hardly likely to be converted now as well). so they may have made terrific profits in the short term but had they not been so greedy (or at least, that is how it appears), they may have made reasonable profits for a much longer period.

that, to me, is a better way to maximise potential.

[Guest rob]

I have 3 boxes ELs that I have no desire to smoke because i get disappointed, though in 4 or 5 years I'll bet the house they'll be marvelous.

Brave man!

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

The early ELs were amazing smokes, sold at regular prices, and styled to pre-1995 standards.

They are only now reaching their full potential.

Those who ignored the heavy criticism of the so-called experts and laid some down are laughing today!

The R&J and Partagas ELs from '04 are only starting to hit their stride, and will have a brilliant future.

No doubt, the early Montes and Cohibas are at least as good.

Most everything from '05 till now has been overpriced and largely forgetable.

Anyone looking for old-style quality these days will do better with well chosen regular production,

like Partagas 8-9-8, or most any Bolivar.

As I write this, I am smoking a May '07 8-9-8.

Way too young, but what a powerhouse!

IMHO, the cigars from '06-'10 that will be most memorable five or ten years from now

will be those with one band.

I don't have to add anything else. MR has encapsulated my thoughts exactly, as per the bolded sentences. Gracias, amigo.

[samb]

Just my opinion, but they were created to exemplify the cigars makers art. And of course for profit. Now exemplifying the art is not necessarily what happened, now is it?

[CanuckSARTech]

It was initially both. Lost their way Circa 2005/6.

Well, 2005 was definitely a waste, but 2006 had the Monte Robusto and the Cohiba Piramides - I know reviews of these are all over the place, but I still would like to get these as they're both brand and profile/shape favourites of mine (haven't had these two at all to date, so I can't discount them yet). And, while this timeline does seem to be the general concensus, I honestly have liked a few since. In 2007, the Trinidad Ingenios EL I liked and bought. Then, the 2008 releases of the Montecristo Sublimes and the Cuaba Piramides I liked also. Aside from these, other releases during these years were somewhat forgettable, hence me buying only the three mentioned. And, 2009 and 2010 releases are also very....blah.

if it had been managed better, LE's might still have an aura of respectibility instead of now being seen as the cuban version of the department stores starting christmas in september.

LOL. So very well put, Ken.

IMHO, the cigars from '06-'10 that will be most memorable five or ten years from now

will be those with one band.

Yeah, the regular production smokes from the last few years have just been stellar.

It's amazing at how that irony is - the EL's were quite nice and interesting when regular production was struggling, and now that regular production is stellar product, the EL program has slipped substantially.

And while I can't yet discount the Cohiba Piramide from 2006, I must admit that H S.A. truely showed their hand on that one. I mean, come on - to do a "re-release" of their high-selling 2001 [?] version? There's nothing more blantant of a money grab, to capitalize on the fame and hype from the earlier release. Same idea with the Behikes, I think. They're just flaggrantly showing their hands as money grabbing at this point.

In my opinion, I think they need to drop the EL program for a year or two maybe, to go back to the drawing board. Everything now is just big sublimes, canonazos, robustos, etc. There's nothing there for a slim-stick lover; everything's short and fat, or huge and huger.

[dcse]

I would have used the EL concept to test the viability of future regular production cigars. Much the same way as we have seen the RE develop over the years. I guess we will soon se the Ramon Allones Belicosos in regular production, and I would love to see some more of the RE Por Larranaga, Bolivar and Ramon Allones enter the regular cigar market.

[CBL]

I would have used the EL concept to test the viability of future regular production cigars. Much the same way as we have seen the RE develop over the years. I guess we will soon se the Ramon Allones Belicosos in regular production, and I would love to see some more of the RE Por Larranaga, Bolivar and Ramon Allones enter the regular cigar market.

I also think there is a regular production RA Belicosos in the air and that is a great thing about the regional release program. To test the water for a new release that won't crash and burn after it has been put on the market.

They tested the market with the 2005 Upmann release and re-released the Magnum 50 for regular production. BUT I think the EL's should stay a little more exclusive otherwise it's useless. For example, if the Montecristo Sublime or the Magnum 48 are gonna be brought into the regular production than their respective 2008 and 2009 releases would have been pointless.

I'm still a fan of the EL's and some RE's mostly because I like to try new things and when I travel I don't want to keep seeing the same cigars in every store I visit while hunting and especially the Regional Releases make those hunts fruitful.

[Jesuscookies]

The EL's seem to be nothing more than overpriced variants of the original marque. Vitolas aside, they are the same. It is economics 101. Take a product, create the illusion of differentation and scarcity and you maximize profits.

It is no different than a shop owner taking cigars and putting them into supposed "special" categories of quality and then charging more for the exact same product.

It's hard to be sucker free in a land full of lollipops

[PigFish]

The EL's seem to be nothing more than overpriced variants of the original marque. Vitolas aside, they are the same. It is economics 101. Take a product, create the illusion of differentation and scarcity and you maximize profits.

It is no different than a shop owner taking cigars and putting them into supposed "special" categories of quality and then charging more for the exact same product.

It's hard to be sucker free in a land full of lollipops

... Ouch!

[PigFish]

It was initially both. Lost their way Circa 2005/6. Now certainly only in the later.

You asked the wrong question Piggy. It should be prefaced " You are CEO of HSA, a company short of money with a psychotic business partner always demanding more.

With this background there is only going to be one answer to your question.

Nonsense! If this goes poorly for Cubatabaco/Tabacuba et al they will do what every communist country does. They will nationalize the entire entity (H SA) and say FU to the non-Cuban investors. As a matter of fact, if the world economy does not turn and make H SA more profitable the Cuban government, likely looking for a typical capitalist scapegoat will likely do this very thing. -Piggy the soothsayer!

Remember boys, you heard it here first! -LOL

[El Presidente]

The EL's seem to be nothing more than overpriced variants of the original marque. Vitolas aside, they are the same. It is economics 101. Take a product, create the illusion of differentation and scarcity and you maximize profits.

It is no different than a shop owner taking cigars and putting them into supposed "special" categories of quality and then charging more for the exact same product.

It's hard to be sucker free in a land full of lollipops

Noting cheaper than the cheap shot.

[El Presidente]

Nonsense! If this goes poorly for Cubatabaco/Tabacuba et al they will do what every communist country does. They will nationalize the entire entity (H SA) and say FU to the non-Cuban investors. As a matter of fact, if the world economy does not turn and make H SA more profitable the Cuban government, likely looking for a typical capitalist scapegoat will likely do this very thing. -Piggy the soothsayer!

Remember boys, you heard it here first! -LOL

I truly hope it happens.

[CanuckSARTech]

It's hard to be sucker free in a land full of lollipops

... Ouch!

[Ken Gargett]

i agree re those 06's and '08s you've mentioned. but in some ways that just highlights the inconsistency of the LE program whereas in the early days, it was rare to get a dog (the dreadful monte C's from 03 an exception - indeed, one might say the thin end of the wedg spelling the doom of the program).

as for the 06 cohiba's, although it was the "same" smoke, it was not so much a re-release in that my understanding is that it was not just bringing out leftovers to sell but they were rolled from scratch for 06. and they were noticably better than the earlier release for me.

[El Presidente]

i agree re those 06's and '08s you've mentioned. but in some ways that just highlights the inconsistency of the LE program whereas in the early days, it was rare to get a dog (the dreadful monte C's from 03 an exception - indeed, one might say the thin end of the wedg spelling the doom of the program).

as for the 06 cohiba's, although it was the "same" smoke, it was not so much a re-release in that my understanding is that it was not just bringing out leftovers to sell but they were rolled from scratch for 06. and they were noticably better than the earlier release for me.

I think you are right Ken, penny dropped in 03 of how successful this program could be and then prices skyrocketed from there. Prices and quantities.

I can't recall LE HDM Piramides being available 2 years after initial release.

[Ken Gargett]

I can't recall LE HDM Piramides being available 2 years after initial release.

agreed but off the top of my head, the price for those in cuba when we first bought them was US$130 a box of 25, making them sensational value. when was the last time the words "sensational value" and "LE's" were in the same sentence without being separated by a massive "NOT"?

[El Presidente]

agreed but off the top of my head, the price for those in cuba when we first bought them was US$130 a box of 25, making them sensational value. when was the last time the words "sensational value" and "LE's" were in the same sentence without being separated by a massive "NOT"?

I know it comes as a shock but I was actually in agreement with you

Very good cigar + Excellent Price + Reasonable production number = sell out and people wanting more.

compared to a few years later

Average to Good cigar + expensive price + seemingly unlimited production = stock on shelves for years and no one caring.