Have you ever purchased a box of Sancho Panza?

[El Presidente]

I know three things Piggy.

1. All Cuban Government Organizations are corrupt. Then again so are many multinationals. Just reading now about BP lobbying for the release of the Lockerbie bomber. Sheesh. How is that Senator who aplogized to Tony Hayward for "Shaking Down" BP going? Amazing. Lets not just poke fingers at communist countries for corruption.

2. Decisions are being made clinically and on sales.

3. Cuban thin cigars and those 44 and above gauges deleted have not sold in any numbers in a long time.

We can rant and rave as much as we like. Until point 3 changes nothing else will.

The LGC Medaille D'Or No 2 of the past two years are some of the highest quality cigars being produced. it will not be construction issues if they get deleted in the next couple of years, simply a lack of interest.

Montecristo Especial is another. I know it is one of the top made cigars over the past 12 months. I worry for it. You smoke them, I smoke them and yet I know the sale numbers.

Maybe tastes change. Maybe we are dinosaurs. In the end until point 3 is changed OR Cuba opens up and privateers start making cigars then we are all royally screwed.

Don't confuse yourself, the driving forces here are "Capitalist" not "Communist". I associate corruption with both.

[SethLG]

Rob has a point, give me any governement and there is corruption, mine is full of it. Anytime you turn the tv on or read something here there isn't some capitalist business or politician that isn't lying about something or doing anything illegal.

I have sat across the room from the Congressman of my district while he goes on and on about how the embargo and how it is a good thing and a necessity and that he supports it and the whole time he is smoking a Cohiba, I mean come on, people are people.

Rob and Habanos knows what sells and what doesn't, when Tob tells you thin cigars don't sell, my guess is thin cigar don't sell. He counts his inventory, and my guess is PCC tells Habanos what they are able to sell and not and what they want to see that will sell.

Common knowledge.

[in0gravity]

On the topic of thin cigars:

Why not produce on demand instead of discontinuing them? Who says that thin cigars might not come en vogue again in a couple of years? Keep them listed in the line-up but produce them only when there is demand from the distributors around the world. And from I am reading here, there is definately a demand for thin cigars

In general I have noticed that the cubans, as of late, are just following the trend instead of being trendsetters. Remember a while back when maduro wrappers were coming out left and right from the NC cigar producers. The cubans followed with the Cohiba Maduro 5 line. In my opinion just to have it in the line-up. What happens when this trend is declining? Are they discontinuing the Maduro 5 line or will they come out with a "normal" wrapper? Will there be more maduro cigars coming out?

Same with the small thick cigars. When the Nub came out and took the market by storm all of the sudden you see a ton of Petit Edmundos, Petit Robustos, Magnum 48 coming out in the EL and ER program.

I am not going into the whole Montecristo Open issue. Oddly enough they are selling like crazy in Germany.

ROI could play a role in the above decisions.

Just my thoughts

Lars

[El Presidente]

Lars, a discontinued cigar can come back into production within a month. That is a good thing.

While I understand the HSA marketing thought process, I don't agree with it. It is a big club that does not agree with it. However, when I see the numbers it takes the wind out of our sails. The sales numbers for skinnies is abysmal. It is something like 750 Jose Piedra sell for every LGC, 350 Monte Open for every Montecristo Especial.

[sama]

750 Jose Piedra sell for every LGC, 350 Monte Open for every Montecristo Especial.

wow... that is staggering! (and scary when thinking of how that will effect future deletions/releases)

[El Presidente]

wow... that is staggering! (and scary when thinking of how that will effect future deletions/releases)

Take into account JP is in almost every tobacconist in Europe and Duty Free. LGC is only in specialist stores.Run of the mill tobacconists won't stock it because it does not move. In the end a self fulfilling prophecy.

Monte Open come in tubes. Evey tobacconist has them. They are front of house duty free worldwide. Automatic choice for pubs, clubs and golf courses due to size and packaging. Monte Especiales don't stand chance.

[in0gravity]

Lars, a discontinued cigar can come back into production within a month. That is a good thing.

While I understand the HSA marketing thought process, I don't agree with it. It is a big club that does not agree with it. However, when I see the numbers it takes the wind out of our sails. The sales numbers for skinnies is abysmal. It is something like 750 Jose Piedra sell for every LGC, 350 Monte Open for every Montecristo Especial.

Thanks Rob, I was not aware of this. This is indeed a good thing.

The above numbers are insane and I don't quite understand it why Jose Piedra sells like crazy. The European Cigar Cult Journal had an article a whila ago about the most selling cigars in Germany. Quintero Brevas, Jose Piedras Brevas and Cazadores were mentioned in the top 12! The Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure No. 2 was the top seller.

Speaking of sales Rob, what are the top 5 selling cigars at Czar's at the moment?

regards

Lars

[El Presidente]

Jose Piedra (top 4) and Quintero (top 8) are amongst the best selling cigars in the world.

I will start a thread as to our top sellers. See if you guys can pick the top 12 for 2009.

[in0gravity]

just a guess the Diplomaticos No. 4 is among them

regards

Lars

[groza]

The above numbers are insane and I don't quite understand it why Jose Piedra sells like crazy. The European Cigar Cult Journal had an article a whila ago about the most selling cigars in Germany. Quintero Brevas, Jose Piedras Brevas and Cazadores were mentioned in the top 12! The Hoyo de Monterrey Epicure No. 2 was the top seller.

I think it was this article: http://www.cigar-cult.com/images/stories/T..._08_mystery.pdf

It looks like cigars have to be either really cheap or really good to sell well, but you can't get both in the same cigar.

[PigFish]

I too know a few things Rob and thanks to your information I know a little more!

If thin cigars sell at a rate somewhere between 1 to 750 or 1 to 350 cigars of other sizes, they cannot possibly be the reason for company failure or large amounts of lost profits. Do the numbers yourself. No one in there right mind blames the janitors salary for the company's red ink. While thin ring cigars are easily considered as market failures they are not the reason, but the scapegoat for company decline and lost revenue. That is the result of poor management.

No capitalist entity is allowed to "call the shots" regardless of investment in a communist country. They will surely get the blame for any failure but the last vote on any major decision regarding government in Cuba is made by a government employee/leader and almost certainly a party member. Businesses in Cuba are government owned. The company business is therefore government business. Lack of individual rights, limitations on free thinking and decision making are the trademarks of communist counties. Decisions are made at the top by the oligarchy, not by the capitalist investor. Management in Cuba is not comprised of business professionals, it is made up of political appointees. Might I add, largely incompetent political appointees!

Capitalist economic terms are irrelevant when used to describe criminal enterprises. I consider communism a criminal enterprise. Capitalists reduce costs by a reduction in force and "layoff" employees. Communists reduce overhead by starvation of the citizenry and the use of "genocide." The use of the term "Return on Investment" is a joke when applied to a communist country. Please tell me the free market term for; if you speak poorly of the government you are sent to prison! Return on investment is always good in a communist country that is why capitalist like to purchase goods produced in these countries and make risky investments in them as well. Lets talk about the actual return on investment with any Cuban cigar not just the generalized term. What does a Cuban cigar cost to produce; 1 US cent, maybe 10? Lets put the term ROI in perspective with the free market. I know people who will drop change in the street and not bother to pick it up. The actual cost of the Cuban cigar in free market money is next to zero and I think you know that.

Raising prices in a down economy is bad for business. Raising taxes in a down economy is bad for business. Business understand this and government ignores it. When H SA raised prices last did they behave as though they were being run by capitalist businessmen or communists bureaucrats? I will leave that one to your imagination.

I have a problem with how the nationalist Cuban tobacco company is run. I call them as I see them and refer to them as incompetent political hacks. I blame the problems on inherent faults of their political system; that governments poorly run for profit enterprises. You too apparently have a problem with how the company is run. You rationalize their behavior in terms of the free market even though they don't function as a free market enterprise. I discount the cost of goods as a result of of the political structure of the country and the use of a less than free labor source. You focus on the cost even if you don't have audited numbers to back up your claims. You blame the half capitalist enterprise H SA and ignore all the lessons of history. I rely on the lessons of history and ignore the un-audited propaganda. You correlate your sales data with the propaganda and call it common sense. I compare the Cuban oligarchy to others of similar construction around the world and call it clear as crystal. I understand that communist counties are only competitive due to the labor stolen from the proletariat and that free market principals don't apply to them because they are not free! You and I simply see the same problem differently and have different villains. Unfortunately we are both guilty of supporting a system that has stolen liberty from those it governs and survives by the labor and liberty it steals. I am ashamed of my complicity but I don't do much more than talk about it!

At the end of the day I don't really care who is responsible for killing my favorite cigars. One thing I wanted to do however is challenge you on giving the slave labor masters, the Cuban government, a free pass. I hate communism and that if from the heart.

Best Amigo, Ray

[El Presidente]

Ray the JV formulae used by Cuba has been in play for a long time be it in Cigars (HSA) or Nickle (Skerrits/Canada). The JV partners are two multinationals who are still there because they make money. In both fields they are the world leader (Moa is one of the largest Nickel mines in the world).

The multinationals involved are no shrinking violets. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.

No matter how you shake it, the fundamental reality is that a box of Partagas Seire De connaisseur no 2 would sell for every 306 boxes of D 4's (those are our numbers here since Nov 09). Keep in mind we sell to the informed market.

I want those cigars back. I am pretty sure we will see them back. Rumour is there is a Partagas Corona Gorda on the way in 2011 to somewhat compensate. We will see.

If people have ever read what I have written about the Cuban Govt over the years they would know I am no lover of the system. I am no lover of HSA as a whole but respect many of the people who work within.

In trying to understand the issue of deletions and directions I try not to cherry pick my philosophical or economic reasonings. I am not giving anyone an "out" but issues such as this can not be wrapped up in two paragraphs.

Ray, I love you but I find many parts of your argument confusing. You hate Communism but you want them to maintain cigars that are uneconomic. You want them to stimulate sales in these classes of cigars but you are against changes to packaging.

In some of the lines deleted there were less than 25000 cigars sold in the prior calender year. 25000 is the minimum benchmark for a a Regional Release.

You see, while the changes to packaging were scoffed at. I don't see it that bloody difficult to get almost all cigars discontinued over the past 5 years to a minimum of 25000 cigars.

It would take an aknowledgement of the problem (because....there is one), a plan of attack by a dedicated group of 2-3 HSA people who look after this "endangered list", 3 year moratorium. If it doesn't work kill it.

[SethLG]

Rob, this is several questions in 1. Do you think Habanos is removing thin cigars from its lineup as a result of people wanting larger cigars? With that do you think the reason larger cigars are more popular is because of the desire for them in the American market? Last of all, do you think Habanos is designing cigars for Americans even though they are "not their market?"

Along with that, what is the change you have been noticing in Habanos over the years? Has it become dramatically differnt, or is this usual Habanos actions.

[Jesuscookies]

For the sake of accuracy.

HSA is a JV between Imperial and Tabacuba. HSA makes the marketing decisions including deletions.

The "Party members" from the Tabacuba side are actually the ones against cuts. It is the former Spanish Altadis clique orchestrating the cuts, the big gauge trend and the RR/LE rollout. Imperial has the money.

Well this clears up one question that was really bugging me.

Why would a product "technically" not legal in the USA be marketed in a fashion designed to appeal to the Americans appetite of "supersize me"? It seems a for profit concern has got their grubby little paws on it?

This is too bad really as there is something very special about the Cuban cigar. Unfortunately, greedy, profit driven, corporate pigs are a hard lot to keep away. Especially when they smell money.

[El Presidente]

Rob, this is several questions in 1. Do you think Habanos is removing thin cigars from its lineup as a result of people wanting larger cigars? With that do you think the reason larger cigars are more popular is because of the desire for them in the American market? Last of all, do you think Habanos is designing cigars for Americans even though they are "not their market?"

Along with that, what is the change you have been noticing in Habanos over the years? Has it become dramatically differnt, or is this usual Habanos actions.

Seth.

1. They are not removing small cigars that sell. Half Corona and Petit Corona are still hellishly popular. It appears that as long as it sells to a minimum number it remains.

2. Larger cigars are popular not just in the American market but in the Asian, Middle Eastern and Eastern European Markets. The three big growth regions of the world.

3. I think that HSA is keeping an eye on all key markets. The trend appears to be the same across the board regardless if it is NY or Beijing, Abu Dhabi or Moscow.

Discontinuations have been going on before Habanos SA JV. PL Magnums come to mind...one of my favourite cigars of all time.

I don't think the reasons why cigars have been discontinued have changed.

[El Presidente]

Well this clears up one question that was really bugging me.

Why would a product "technically" not legal in the USA be marketed in a fashion designed to appeal to the Americans appetite of "supersize me"? It seems a for profit concern has got their grubby little paws on it?

This is too bad really as there is something very special about the Cuban cigar. Unfortunately, greedy, profit driven, corporate pigs are a hard lot to keep away. Especially when they smell money.

JC, just to be clear the same trends are in each of the key growth markets: Asia/Middle East/Eastern Europe.

[Ken Gargett]

No one in there right mind blames the janitors salary for the company's red ink.

i have not had time of late to keep up with this thread or read all of the posts - i will catch up - but i noticed this commenet.

ray, that might be true but that doesn't mean they don't sack the janitor.

[Jesuscookies]

JC, just to be clear the same trends are in each of the key growth markets: Asia/Middle East/Eastern Europe.

And who do you think is driving that perception?

I say it is the brainless, souless, multiconglomorations who are out for profit, and nothing more.

Sadly the fact still remains, marketing and hype rule the day. The lemmings continue to follow, and the vicious cycle continues.

It is probably a good thing that CC's were never available to the American public over the last 50 years, or the change you are seeing today would have happened a lot sooner.

Just my 2 pesos

[El Presidente]

Ray, I didn't really reply to your post earlier in the day the way it should be. It was a detailed and well thought out post. Apologies but with Smithy away I was a tad short of time this morning. I have a Quai D'Orsay corona and a glass of red now. Permit me.

Do you really believe anyone tells the Mafia how to make money? Does the market (the US) tell the Chinese how much to pay their labor? Do you really think that capitalist entities have any say about what goes on in a communist country after the money is spent? Ask the oil companies what happened to their investments in Venezuela.

Free market Capitalists go in knowing what they are getting. The fact that it is a monopoly provides its own opportunities due to classic barriers to entry. They also understand the "Political/Sovereign risk."

How exactly did Castro treat any other "investors" in Cuba, perhaps except the Soviet Union?

Very few success stories. Altadis and Skerritts (Nickel) + Melia hotel group (Spain)

We are approaching a problem from two different directions. Yours would make sense to me if I considered anything from a communist country as a true for profit enterprise and not for a political enterprise. I discount the corporate angle because I don't think that the political over there is any better than organized crime. I focus on the corruption and say you can't make a deal with the devil. You focus on the corporate for your reasons, ones I can only speculate on. Has Tabacuba or Cubatabaco ever been audited by a credible independent firm???

Enron was audited for many years. Lets rule out auditing as the be all and end all right now otherwise we can raise a myriad of financial and service enterprises in the US and abroad who have engaged in less the "ethical" if not "criminal" behaviour. Doeas anyone really believe China growth figures? The markets will accept whatever suits them.

Who supplies the gray market? How come it even exists? Here in lies the power to my perspective. The entire Cuban tobacco business is full of deceit and corruption and while return on investment "may" very well be the right answer, mismanagement and corporate corruption is a huge part of the problem. In my mind there is no use of legitimate market teminalogy with a corrupt partner. When a partner steals the money, or sells cigars out of the distribution chain, or allow those products to be sold outside the chain, I ask you; how do you trust them? If they don't stop it, they support it!

The Grey market is wholy supplied by Cuban sources be they well connected individuals or the military. The reason is money/cashflow. I never said I trusted them The system is corrupt to the core. Again every one doing business there understands this. It is a cost to doing business. Try to do business in Indonesia where "marketing fees" are largely made up of bribes. It is a cost of doing business. They are not the only ones. Africa/cental&south America/ Eastern European states.

I don't trust anything they say, you do! When I say I don't, that means I don't believe anything they have to say. I therefore discard any thrush with all the lies! I can't pick and choose my facts, I just observe and deny them any faith in their words. Arson, when you light the fire yourself is not a legitimate business loss!!!

True to an extent mate. I see however my numbers. I know the numbers of other major players. The sales numbers are fact and not fiction.

I find political business entities inherently corrupt. I see no difference here between Tabacuba and Fannie Mae. I can see Barney Frank telling Congress that Fannie Mae is in good shape! I can see the head of Tabacuba telling you guys and the folks at H SA that they are not making money because of the cursed "thin cigar."

So it is not a strictly Communist occurrence. Ray, a cigar business could make a living selling Robustos/Piramides and Petit/Half Corona's. It would be broke in a month selling skinnies and half/petit corona's. The market is a significant player and it cannot be discounted.

The question is then how do you know when a liar is lying? How do you know when they are reporting the truth to you Rob and not lying to you? Corruption problems are not solved by narrowing down the production line. It is not the toothache that kills you... it is the cancer in your jaw.

You know by understanding your own figures and discussing the facts of figures with other major players. When HSA releases numbers saying sales are down 9% I know they are down 30% because we have our own sources for such things. Ray, why is it that you can get aged LGC skinnies ingeneral shipments but not Robusto's......because no one is buying. Keep in mind general production for those "Aged Skinnies of LGC 1/2/3/4 has been skeleton numbers since 2001. Yet you can pick up some 01 3's today. You can't do that with Robusto's or Piramides.

Nothing personal Mate! -Piggy

Never is mate. I would love to see the day again when skinnies were a significant force.

[bobsled]

Used to keep some of these in the "moochador" probably a pc size but can't remember for certain. not a bad smoke but not a good one either.

[PigFish]

Ray the JV formulae used by Cuba has been in play for a long time be it in Cigars (HSA) or Nickle (Skerrits/Canada). The JV partners are two multinationals who are still there because they make money. In both fields they are the world leader (Moa is one of the largest Nickel mines in the world).

The multinationals involved are no shrinking violets. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.

No matter how you shake it, the fundamental reality is that a box of Partagas Seire De connaisseur no 2 would sell for every 306 boxes of D 4's (those are our numbers here since Nov 09). Keep in mind we sell to the informed market.

I want those cigars back. I am pretty sure we will see them back. Rumour is there is a Partagas Corona Gorda on the way in 2011 to somewhat compensate. We will see.

If people have ever read what I have written about the Cuban Govt over the years they would know I am no lover of the system. I am no lover of HSA as a whole but respect many of the people who work within.

In trying to understand the issue of deletions and directions I try not to cherry pick my philosophical or economic reasonings. I am not giving anyone an "out" but issues such as this can not be wrapped up in two paragraphs.

Ray, I love you but I find many parts of your argument confusing. You hate Communism but you want them to maintain cigars that are uneconomic. You want them to stimulate sales in these classes of cigars but you are against changes to packaging.

In some of the lines deleted there were less than 25000 cigars sold in the prior calender year. 25000 is the minimum benchmark for a a Regional Release.

You see, while the changes to packaging were scoffed at. I don't see it that bloody difficult to get almost all cigars discontinued over the past 5 years to a minimum of 25000 cigars.

It would take an aknowledgement of the problem (because....there is one), a plan of attack by a dedicated group of 2-3 HSA people who look after this "endangered list", 3 year moratorium. If it doesn't work kill it.

Rob... Likewise! It is a good friend who can disagree with you and not piss on you. I love you too brother! I have always said I am a lost Aussie! That is probably a good thing too (being lost) because I am not about to chop my guns up for scrap, cause of your crazy laws!!! -LOL

The discussion that we are having is a complex one, a diverse one.

I object to your suggestion that a cigar that sells less than 25000 per year is an uneconomic one. Cigars themselves represent a niche market, one that is getting smaller due to social, economic and even legal restraints and pressures. We have a difference in opinion as to what constitutes a viable number. As stated previously I distrust the "corporate" numbers due to the distrust of the organization. I bring up corruption and dishonesty not as a means to deride H SA et al, but to make a point that while you may correlate and trust their numbers, I do not. I have a basis for distrust, a proven reason to distrust them and bring up the gray market as evidence. I don't know how you can advocate their numbers at all, even on an objective level based on correlative data.

There is no need to bring up Enron to me. I don't advocate Enron!!! We are not talking about Enron! Saying that all corporations and political structures have corruption is acknowledged. But that being said, there is no place in this discussion for the point that "because Enron does, it is okay that H SA, does it as well." Face it Mate... that is a smoke screen!

Yes, I went on a tirade about politics again! I am sorry about that. Like your Enron analogy that has no real place here in this discussion. My point about the political structure in Cuba was this. When a political/economic system relies on genocide to cut costs, uses propaganda as it only news source and denies all other access to information; the data that they provide is questionable, to say the least.

You focus in your discussion only one form of marketing, that of rebranding and packaging. I have to laugh a bit at this, but the laugh is with you and not at you. I am not scoffing at you! While you advocate this repackaging bit, when I go to your site there is no focus on packaging! I am not saying that you don't promote nice pictures of the products that you sell. But there is no emphasis on shiny boxes on your site. You depict the products in a professional and alluring manor. I like it, don't get me wrong.

Here is what you do, do. You send me emails about once a week talking about a sale! You offer me an enticement, a contest, you encourage me to buy something today. You don't offer me an extra shiny ******* box!!! You advocate the H SA option verbally and then practice what you know works privately. My suggestion is this. Why don't you both do what works? Tell these guys that while a new line dressed in Izod colored tubes may work on some people it is wasted on others. Tell them to bundle and sell me some nice coronas at a nice price, 100 sticks at a time and wrap them in cello because I don't want or need the ******* box! Save me the cost of the box... I am not a box smoker, or a box collector.

I don't resist marketing Rob. I resist the notion that you are going to suddenly sell more skinny cigars because you repackage them. If they don't sell much... they are not going to suddenly sell more because you repackage them, increase the cost due to the packaging and want even more for them.

Maybe there are other reasons that they don't sell Rob. I am looking at your site now. A box of Monte Especials are $270 USD a box. Partagas SD 4's are $201. Wait a minute and I will run out to the garage and put both cigars on the scale.....

Monte Especial 163.2 grains (7000 grains per pound)

Partagas D-4 200.1 grains

What is wrong with this picture? Maybe these folks are ignoring the most basic of economics and marketing and they are simply gouging on the thinner ring cigars and pricing them out of the market. When you compare the RASS... well the comparison gets even uglier!

I know that I don't always make my point as clear as crystal and understanding my thoughts can be confusing but my arguments are logical and honest if not totally clear and easy to follow. I am not scoffing at your thoughts my friend I am only saying that if H SA et al is only going to continue to make the cigars I like by overpricing them and making them gimmicky then they might as well stop producing them now because making them gimmicky and more expensive will only cause me to buy even less of them. It appears since I am the only guy around buying them the gimmicks therefore will make sales even worse.

Best Amigo. -Ray

[ewipper]

Some spirited discussion with friends. It was proposed to ask this to the FOH members.

Will discuss the reasons for it in a few days but please take the time to answer

Sancho Panza cigars are extraordinary smokes but they are not ready for at least a decade. I have a box of 98 Bachilleres that is just brewing its morning coffee.

If you have patience with these cigars from the Bachilleres to the Sanchos, you will have a wonderful box to smoke.

[ChanceSchmerr]

Maybe there are other reasons that they don't sell Rob. I am looking at your site now. A box of Monte Especials are $270 USD a box. Partagas SD 4's are $201. Wait a minute and I will run out to the garage and put both cigars on the scale.....

Monte Especial 163.2 grains (7000 grains per pound)

Partagas D-4 200.1 grains

What is wrong with this picture? Maybe these folks are ignoring the most basic of economics and marketing and they are simply gouging on the thinner ring cigars and pricing them out of the market. When you compare the RASS... well the comparison gets even uglier!

Some great arguments here but I think this is a key point here - For less tobacco, we get charged far more in general. This goes for nearly all merchants I've seen, with respect to Long Skinnies. What is driving this price spike? It's not the better taste - that's strictly an opinion of some of us. I doubt also that it is because of the greater difficulty in rolling long and skinnies - its not as if those experienced rollers are making that much more to work.......The length perhaps? If so - that's BS, and I think would really help explain the quandary of why these long skinnies aren't selling. Length should not be such a massive determinant to cigar price. At least, I don't think so.

Great discussion on both sides.

[El Presidente]

Some great arguments here but I think this is a key point here - For less tobacco, we get charged far more in general. This goes for nearly all merchants I've seen, with respect to Long Skinnies. What is driving this price spike? It's not the better taste - that's strictly an opinion of some of us. I doubt also that it is because of the greater difficulty in rolling long and skinnies - its not as if those experienced rollers are making that much more to work.......The length perhaps? If so - that's BS, and I think would really help explain the quandary of why these long skinnies aren't selling. Length should not be such a massive determinant to cigar price. At least, I don't think so.

Great discussion on both sides.

Chris a Montecristo Especial is a bastard to roll properly taking far more care than a Monte 2. Even the best rollers (not used to long skinnies) seldom get the gauge right tending to roll 2-4 gauges too large.

In the end you have a slow moving cigar requiring specialist rollers. No doubt somewhere that factors into the price although I agree it shouldn't do to the extend it appears to do so.

[CanuckSARTech]

I believe that they are salty because Sanchos are only rolled in the late afternoon. By that time the inner thighs of all those virgins have a nice sheen of sweat which is transferred to the tobacco.

Maybe Rob can confirm this.... I guess it could be either sweat or something else....

Ewwwwwww. Funny as heck, tho!

No chance.

What would be the point? As far as ROI... I could alternatively invest $2M in a special release heavy hitter or new vitola in a more popular brand - a regular production Cohiba Piramide for instance - and KNOW it was going to pay me back.

Bang on, brother. Preach it! Man, would a zillion people like to see that!

A new band and packaging....a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Very true. But, the marca doesn't need to be pushed off of the deck, into the freezing waters. As long as it's given it's fair due, a chance that other lower marcas have as well - it has to prove itself with it's blends, and it hasn't done that so far according to many.

I myself have neither tried nor tasted any SP's. The negative impressions of them by others has made me stay away. I know I need to give them my own unbridled chance as well, but there's just so much other good stuff out there!