Have you ever purchased a box of Sancho Panza?

[dcse]

It seems to me that all the interesting vitolas from Sancho has already been discontinued with only the boring vitolas left.

On a completely different issue: Why is Colt changing his avatar all the time?

[dicko]

Interesting - under the current system, I consider Habanos the brand and the different marques variations on a theme or perhaps different models.

Want to truly save the marque? Have the Cuban government allow HSA to sell it off and let it go private. Sell it to Cubans who are real cigar people.

If they are considering discontinuing the brand as a whole, they'd have nothing to lose and money to gain.

Sounds great, but isn't it against the whole communism thing?

[dicko]

On a completely different issue: Why is Colt changing his avatar all the time?

I know, I'm all at sea...

[Colt45]

On a completely different issue: Why is Colt changing his avatar all the time?

I'm a man without a country - with no sense of purpose, no sense of self worth - I am an avatar changer..........

Sounds great, but isn't it against the whole communism thing?

Yes, but I have to believe even the commies can understand the bottom line.

[dcse]

I'm a man without a country - with no sense of purpose, no sense of self worth - I am an avatar changer..........

Yes, but I have to believe even the commies can understand the bottom line.

Hey, are we related?

Buying CC's, we are all contributing to the survival of an oppressive regime, as cigars must their most lucrative source of revenue. Quite a predicament.

[Colt45]

Hey, are we related?

LOL!

Another thought with regards to the SP marque.......

It could remain a brand under the Habanos umbrella, but become more of an independent brand. A new group takes over, have their own factory

where they produce nothing but SP. They hire, train, and pay their own rollers. They box and ship their product. They could do marketing on their

own and in conjunction with Habanos. Habanos owns the name but leases the rights to use it. The new group uses their own money, and Habanos

gets a cut.

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

Buying CC's, we are all contributing to the survival of an oppressive regime, as cigars must their most lucrative source of revenue. Quite a predicament.

By the same token, millions of folk in capitalist countries are contributing to the survival of a non-democratic, oppressive regime in China....the world is awash with Chinese-sourced goods.

Cigars are not the main source of revenue for the Cuban Commies.

[JoshMP]

Investing $2 million.

half a million to marketing.

half a million to repackage.

And the rest to ensuring consistency.

It seems the consensus is that the flavor profile is good, it's just the plethora of plugged and poorly rolled cigars that is the problem with this particular brand. And I have to agree, when they are smokeable they are great cigars.

Wit the right marketing I think they would sell, after all how often do you see anything about Sancho Panza? If HSA allows it to slip in to anonymity of course the sales are going to decrease.

Imagine, if you will, $10,000 to Arnie if he smokes only Sancho Panza for 6 months. Now can you imagine what that would do to revitalize sales of the brand?

[SnakeHips]

Investing $2 million.

half a million to marketing.

half a million to repackage.

And the rest to ensuring consistency.

It seems the consensus is that the flavor profile is good, it's just the plethora of plugged and poorly rolled cigars that is the problem with this particular brand. And I have to agree, when they are smokeable they are great cigars.

Wit the right marketing I think they would sell, after all how often do you see anything about Sancho Panza? If HSA allows it to slip in to anonymity of course the sales are going to decrease.

Imagine, if you will, $10,000 to Arnie if he smokes only Sancho Panza for 6 months. Now can you imagine what that would do to revitalize sales of the brand?

I think any failed or dying brand is a result of poor advertising. They don't promote SP in any way; no new sizes, no special releases, no ERs...no attention. People lose sight of anything that isn't given any attention in favor of giving the big sellers all the attention.

[Freddy]

Sanchos belis have a special place in my heart because they were the first CC's I ever smoked

[Onsto]

So here's my bit for the cause; 10 box of Sanchos which arrived this morning.

The cigars themselves look good (aroma is a little muted but they were saturated for travel so need some time to acclimatise). That DB is just dire, it looks OLD, and per the last pic, these cigars were rolled in 2001 and then 'Revisado' (restocked / revised?) in 2004 and still haven't gone anywhere. They've been sitting on a shelf for the better part of a decade, waiting for a keeper.

PS - the revisado is a guess from me, if anyone knows better, please pipe up. I haven't seen that stamp before, including on recently acquired boxes from 1997 and 2001.

[Colt45]

PS - the revisado is a guess from me, if anyone knows better, please pipe up. I haven't seen that stamp before, including on recently acquired boxes from 1997 and 2001.

The revisado stamp and a second warranty seal over the first means the box has been reinspected.

[Onsto]

The revisado stamp and a second warranty seal over the first means the box has been reinspected.

Thanks Ross. I'm hopeful that means they won't be really big tent pegs! They were only in transit a day so I'm going to let them acclimatise for a week and sit for a couple of hours on Canada Day with one of these bad boys.

[Colt45]

Thanks Ross. I'm hopeful that means they won't be really big tent pegs! They were only in transit a day so I'm going to let them acclimatise for a week and sit for a couple of hours on Canada Day with one of these bad boys.

Enjoy them! And if you have time, post a review, or give your overall impressions.

[frenchkiwi]

Bought box of bachilleres when cheap yr2000 boxes were plentiful. Enjoy salty profile when i'm in the mood for it - unique.

And that's the point - they are UNIQUE. Apart from being a historic marca with an interesting literary brand - smoking Windmills Bachelors Dulcineas Quijotes et al., they also have a flavour profile that sets them apart. When I want a salty woody cigar, let's call it the "driftwood" flavour, i know where to go.

Variety is the spice of life. Promote the brand if you must (don't know if it needs promoting in Spain mind you), but leave it alone.

Don Quijote the idealist to Sancho Panza the cynic:

I prefer variety, imperfections and intrigue (los don quijotes del puro) to a monotony of a few cynical well-marketed brands of beautiful Fat cigars (los sancho panzas)... de cuyos nombres no quiero recordarme

;-)

[Onsto]

Enjoy them! And if you have time, post a review, or give your overall impressions.

Had some feedback from another member who used the same vendor and had to send 2 impossibly plugged boxes (with the smae May 01 box code) back, so decided to try one today and make sure they were ok. I deliberately selected the one that felt the firmest and most 'knotty' of the box and retired to a quiet spot in Stanley Park with the latest 'CycleWorld'. I also packed a litre of iced tea and my 'draw tool' (a thin metal skewer)... I meant to take my camera and forgot, so no pics.

Cut was good - the entire cap came away beautifully, and the pre light draw was definitely firm but nothing that I was panicked by. First third required slow smoking, a little double puffing and some long, measured draws to get a decent smoke volume. Flavours were suble and subdued, slightly herby, a few floral overtones and somewhat under medium bodied. I gave a couple of prods with the skewer and kept everything moving. Ash was very white and held up very well, realised at one stage that it was close to 8 cm without any hint of dropping.

Second third opened well, building the same flavours and moving into medium bodied. Quite a slow transition but definitely marked. Picked up a few bergamot/ raw vanilla hints, almost like an earl grey tea, very pleasurable. I put it down for several minutes at a time without going out.

Started to experience a few wrapper issues going into the final third, splitting and eventually requiring a bit of repair work. Didn't impact the smoke at all, but slightly irritating in that it distracted my attention somewhat from the cigar and the magazine. Moved into a solid medium body, more herby in character, with a peppery (coriander?) impression through the nose. Draw remained firm throughout, but no more so than many other CC. With about 5cm remaining the smoke became hot and I let it go out. Total smoke time was just shy of 2.5 hours.

First impressions - you definitely need to have a lot of time and patience to enjoy these; ideally a quiet afternoon / evening with nothing pressing to attend to. Overall, very satisfying and somehow genteel. I doubt I'll get through the box any time soon as this will never be a go-to smoke purely based on the size. I didn't identify anything I would call salty, which seems to be a commonly accepted trait of the marca, and in future I will pre-cut and dry box for a day before smoking (bearing in mind these have only been in the humidor for 10 days). My opinion is that these should have a place in the humidor. I will look forward to days when I know that I will have enough time to enjoy one, however rare an occurence.

[PigFish]

A new band and packaging....a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

... oh Jesus! Quote of the week!!! -LOL

I don't like to see any Cuban brands go down with the Titanic but after giving the brand more than its fair share of chances I won't be buying any more boxes, bands or cigars. I don't buy boxes and bands by the way. That is not what gets me to buy the cigars in the first place!

If I were betting on a cigar, I would not bet Sancho Panza, win, place or show! -P

[PigFish]

Congrats gentlemen. You have just replicated a HSA marketing meeting

Bullshit!

H SA meetings likely consist of "Party" members telling underlings what they need to know and believe. Frankly the people opining on this thread have more brains, understanding and insight than those at H SA.

Tabacuba is corrupt and the fish rots from the head down. There is no discussion of legitimate business when it comes to these people. This is like telling the tax collector that you are deducting bribes to local officials as a legitimate business expense! -Piggy

[semery74]

So here's my bit for the cause; 10 box of Sanchos which arrived this morning.

The Sanchos is King!

[SethLG]

You can blame the lack of success of Sanch Panzo on several things from poor quality to poor advertisement but at the end of the day you don't need to advertise quality. I think you could made a new size for Sanch Panzo or even a special relase humidor at a La Casa Del Habno but I do not belive it would make a difference. Sometime more is just more. Get rid of them and save some quality for other blends.

It's all Darwinism.

If I said I worked for Habanos SA, hypothetically, would some of you take me out back and beat the crap out of me ?

I have had some great Sanch Panza's and some bad ones, just like I have had some bad Cohiba's and good ones as well. Some rollers do a better job on some than others and some leaves are better than others. Hand made means imperfect. Once again what is perfect in making cigars, better yet what is perfect in general.

[El Presidente]

Bullshit!

H SA meetings likely consist of "Party" members telling underlings what they need to know and believe. Frankly the people opining on this thread have more brains, understanding and insight than those at H SA.

Tabacuba is corrupt and the fish rots from the head down. There is no discussion of legitimate business when it comes to these people. This is like telling the tax collector that you are deducting bribes to local officials as a legitimate business expense! -Piggy

For the sake of accuracy.

HSA is a JV between Imperial and Tabacuba. HSA makes the marketing decisions including deletions.

The "Party members" from the Tabacuba side are actually the ones against cuts. It is the former Spanish Altadis clique orchestrating the cuts, the big gauge trend and the RR/LE rollout. Imperial has the money.

[Stalebread]

For the sake of accuracy.

HSA is a JV between Imperial and Tabacuba. HSA makes the marketing decisions including deletions.

The "Party members" from the Tabacuba side are actually the ones against cuts. It is the former Spanish Altadis clique orchestrating the cuts, the big gauge trend and the RR/LE rollout. Imperial has the money.

HSA and Tabacuba are two different entities, yes?

One marketing and the other production . . . ?

[El Presidente]

HSA and Tabacuba are two different entities, yes?

One marketing and the other production . . . ?

Thanks for the nod to accuracy.

You know, however, that the facts, no matter how interesting, are irrelevant.

I should be accurate myself.

Overall control of Cuban Tobacco monopoly : Cubatabaco.

Factories: Tabacuba

Commercialisation & marketing: Habanos s.a (50% Joint venture between Imperial Tobacco & Cubatabaco).

Altadis (now taken over by Imperial tobacco) paid 500 million euro for its 50% share of Habanos s.a.

It is one of the reasons I smile when I see people add up the cost of a cigar and come up with 50 cents or a dollar. No one takes into account infrastructure or necessary return on investment (6% = 30 Million Euro ).

I think that number is what is hurting Cuban cigars and behind the angst. Has Capitalism killed the cat? Did Cuba get top dollar for a JV partner? Was the price paid too high?

I am not sure but the things occurring today are a direct result of the commercial need to make a return on investment on that 500 m Euro while reinvesting in the necessary infrastructure.

[khomeinist]

Wow. Thanks Rob. That is the most lucid explanation of HSA structure and base motive that I have seen on this forum. Bravo.

[PigFish]

For the sake of accuracy.

HSA is a JV between Imperial and Tabacuba. HSA makes the marketing decisions including deletions.

The "Party members" from the Tabacuba side are actually the ones against cuts. It is the former Spanish Altadis clique orchestrating the cuts, the big gauge trend and the RR/LE rollout. Imperial has the money.

Do you really believe anyone tells the Mafia how to make money? Does the market (the US) tell the Chinese how much to pay their labor? Do you really think that capitalist entities have any say about what goes on in a communist country after the money is spent? Ask the oil companies what happened to their investments in Venezuela.

How exactly did Castro treat any other "investors" in Cuba, perhaps except the Soviet Union?

We are approaching a problem from two different directions. Yours would make sense to me if I considered anything from a communist country as a true for profit enterprise and not for a political enterprise. I discount the corporate angle because I don't think that the political over there is any better than organized crime. I focus on the corruption and say you can't make a deal with the devil. You focus on the corporate for your reasons, ones I can only speculate on. Has Tabacuba or Cubatabaco ever been audited by a credible independent firm???

Who supplies the gray market? How come it even exists? Here in lies the power to my perspective. The entire Cuban tobacco business is full of deceit and corruption and while return on investment "may" very well be the right answer, mismanagement and corporate corruption is a huge part of the problem. In my mind there is no use of legitimate market teminalogy with a corrupt partner. When a partner steals the money, or sells cigars out of the distribution chain, or allow those products to be sold outside the chain, I ask you; how do you trust them? If they don't stop it, they support it!

I don't trust anything they say, you do! When I say I don't, that means I don't believe anything they have to say. I therefore discard any thrush with all the lies! I can't pick and choose my facts, I just observe and deny them any faith in their words. Arson, when you light the fire yourself is not a legitimate business loss!!!

I find political business entities inherently corrupt. I see no difference here between Tabacuba and Fannie Mae. I can see Barney Frank telling Congress that Fannie Mae is in good shape! I can see the head of Tabacuba telling you guys and the folks at H SA that they are not making money because of the cursed "thin cigar."

The question is then how do you know when a liar is lying? How do you know when they are reporting the truth to you Rob and not lying to you? Corruption problems are not solved by narrowing down the production line. It is not the toothache that kills you... it is the cancer in your jaw.

Nothing personal Mate! -Piggy