Have you ever purchased a box of Sancho Panza?

[Ken Gargett]

No chance.

What would be the point? As far as ROI... I could alternatively invest $2M in a special release heavy hitter or new vitola in a more popular brand - a regular production Cohiba Piramide for instance - and KNOW it was going to pay me back.

agreed - forget it.

[Colt45]

You have 2 million to invest. You have the final vote. Cast it

I'm not sure if I'd try to revitalize the marque or not. Personally, if I did, I'd go with a corona gorda (I do realize the robusto's popularity), and forgo the lacquered

box - simple wood slb / sbn / 898 works for me. A new band couldn't hurt.

I'd put more energy into touting the rejuvenated blend and overall qualities of the line.

[Trevor2118]

A new band and packaging....a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[El Presidente]

and forgo the lacquered

I'd put more energy into touting the rejuvenated blend and overall qualities of the line.

Sorry, I didn't mean a lacquered box. Straight black with gold highlights dress box.

[ucla695]

Nope on both. I can't say I have a desire to ever smoke one.

I'd invest the money in the other popular marcas. The higher demand will command a higher price. Perhaps a super premium MC, Partagas, Bolivar, etc... Similar idea to the 3 new Behikes, but more affordable to the masses.

[ChanceSchmerr]

I think everyone that is voting "No" on this one is taking their negative experiences with SP as it is now and letting this sway them into thinking the Marca is beyond saving. How much Cigar history do we need to lose before we're down to Cohiba, Montecristo and museum pieces?

Sancho Panza's been around since 1848 (thank you, Trevor!) We're talking over 160 years of cigar history, and a marca that continues to stand the test of time. The NO group on this thread notwithstanding, there HAS to be people out there that like and enjoy them. Maybe the're all in Spain? Who knows. I don't think you should punt a cigar marca altogether without giving it a fair chance at revival. What's $2 Mil to try to save such a long-lived brand, really? Give it a fair chance, a fresh start, then if it doesn't sell, fails to win over new fans - then yeah, maybe it's time to get rid of the brand, or maybe make it only for a specific market like Spain (kind of like Quai D'Orsay for France)

But just because naysayers think it's garbage - I don't think it's a fair shake to 160 years of history to just let it sink like so many other discontinued cigars. Hype sells - and SP isn't given any. It's worth a shot!

Lastly - sounds like a lot of NO responses are due in part to plugged construction. That can be fixed. If the taste of SP is the real problem....then maybe it's in real trouble. I just don't think thats the case. Too many plugged Sanchos/CGs/Non Pluses.....and thats what people remember.

[Colt45]

Sorry, I didn't mean a lacquered box. Straight black with gold highlights dress box.

Like a Caddy with the gold package

I don't think it's a fair shake to 160 years of history to just let it sink like so many other discontinued cigars.

That's one way to look at it. Another might be that Cuban cigar brand history is just that - history, and that the individual brands died with expropriation.

Let me ask a general question: If we could take the two million and had a choice to either revitalize the SP marque, or leave it's fate to sales and put the money

toward bringing back and pushing the Partagas SdC line, or a cigar like the RA 898, what would members do?

[khomeinist]

Yeah. Forget the SP robusto. Yawn. Either spend the money on revitalizing the existing vitolas or put the money somewhere else. RA 898. SDC. Diplomaticos lancero (ha). H. Upmann Mag 38 (ha again). The possibilities are endless. I would like the SP flavor profile to remain but not with the opportunity costs mentioned.

[ChanceSchmerr]

Let me ask a general question: If we could take the two million and had a choice to either revitalize the SP marque, or leave it's fate to sales and put the money

toward bringing back and pushing the Partagas SdC line, or a cigar like the RA 898, what would members do?

Fair question - but it gets into the "Ounce of prevention..." argument. The RA has been gone 8 years, is now a legend. The SdC line has been gone less than a year, and is fast becoming a legend. It's also a great pity that many new cigar fans will never get the chance to enjoy them in any appreciable number - why not prevent further injustices such as this by trying to save another endangered species rather than bringing back an extinct one? They are gone and comebacks of disgraceful deletions by Habanos S.A. are few and far between. It would seem to me that we should first try to save what we have instead of bringing back those that are already gone.

Besides, who is to say that RA 898s brought back would be any more successful than their ancestors? Yes, you'd have a huge sales bump to start off as everyone remembers the legend.....but what then? They didn't sell enough to save themselves 10 years ago. Didn't Rob say that the Bolivar Gold Medal sales have fallen off precipitously after a couple good years upon its return? What is to stop a returned cigar from experiencing this same occurance? What if they don't get the blend right and its not what people remember?

Lastly - and this was one of my main points - Hype sells. You tell average cigar smoker Joe Sweatsock that you've got a new, shiny cuban cigar coming out, he'll damn well want to buy it - LE's sell like hotcakes, no matter how good or bad they are (except maybe the lousy Monte Cs). And if he likes it, chances are better he tries others in the brand to see if he likes them too, that's one of the whole points of the LE/RE schtick - to increase brand awareness. By failing to give some marcas a shot at a shiny release, regardless of how reprehensible the old-school cigar smokers think the LE/RE machine has become, you are shooting that marca in the foot, leaving it behind in the dust, so new cigar smokers don't even know it exists.

I was lucky. My first hand-rolled cuban was a Sancho Panza Sanchos, because that was the biggest Cuban Cigar my tobacconist had at the time. The odds of something like this happening again to a new cigar smoker today are miniscule, the Sanchos is discontinued. As it stands now, SP has no shot...I don't see why it doesn't deserve one.

[jacksfull]

You have 2 million to invest. You have the final vote. Cast it

Strictly from a marketing POV, I think I would be more inclined to take SP the same route as Quintero, as a tripa corta line.

If it's true, as I have read, that SP, Quintero and JLP are all traditionally popular brands in Spain where the "everyday" Cuban cigar still has a reasonably good foothold (and I mean "popular" in both senses of the word,) then this could be a fruitful move.

Use better grade tobaccos with the cheaper, but perhaps more consistent construction, to create a "premium" budget cigar positioned above JLP and Quintero but below all the long filler lines.

Let's face it, Sancho Panza's image is not that strong nowadays. However, as a $2 or $3 cigar, it's prestige would be plenty strong enough to capture a broader audience.

As I said, that's from an dispassionate marketing POV. From the enthusiasts angle, I'm as appalled at my own suggestion as any of you

Still, a buck is a buck, a peso is a peso, and volume is volume.

[Colt45]

As it stands now, SP has no shot...I don't see why it doesn't deserve one.

Fistly, I don't disagree that the line deserves a shot at redemption, but the question asked of each of us was if we'd do it were it up to us to spend

the money. Some have said no, I myself am undecided. I understand about the RA and P SdC not selling, but I did say that they'd have to be pushed

(hyped) if brought back. What you call injustice and disgraceful, I unfortunately simply consider business - good or bad, time will tell. But HSA are

a business, and in business, to make money. They are obviously not the keepers of the historical flame we might like to think they are.

As for hype and shiny and new, I personally don't really buy into it. Truth be told, a lot of the new stuff has had just the opposite effect on me -

you could call it a form of reverse snobbery. Using the new behikes as an example, aside from greatly disliking the sizes, I look at all the pomp,

gold bands, and shiny boxes with somewhat of a feeling of disdain, I look at them as a caricature, to a degree I consider them "low rent". SPs

with black and gold boxes? CAO you later.

I'm one of the members who has bought SP boxes. To my recollection, my first Cuban cigar was a Montecristo No.5 - bigger isn't always better

[dicko]

Maybe they could do a "Habanos Reserve" or "premium" line of say 5-6 cigars. This "reserve line" sits between the many regular production and the 3 LE's for each year. Each cigar in the line would run for 2-3 years and cycles (staggered each year so 2 in 2 out each year) through to new cigar releases every year, maybe bringing back some deletions through this cycle.

Every cigar from this line sells in a 10 count box with a slight premium (between regular line and LE, like a 10/15% mark up).

Successful cigars from this line can go to regular production, and ones that don't sell will only be put out for 2-3 years anyway and I would assume that there would at least be a spike in sales initially for each cigar.

I reckon a SP robusto in this format would do well.

my 2c

[bunburyist]

Yup - Sancho Belis, and they're awesome. Trumps my BBFs you know...

[bunburyist]

As for hype and shiny and new, I personally don't really buy into it. Truth be told, a lot of the new stuff has had just the opposite effect on me -

you could call it a form of reverse snobbery. Using the new behikes as an example, aside from greatly disliking the sizes, I look at all the pomp,

gold bands, and shiny boxes with somewhat of a feeling of disdain, I look at them as a caricature, to a degree I consider them "low rent". SPs

with black and gold boxes? CAO you later.

aye

[thechenman]

I do enjoy the Sanchos and love the Belicosos, the rest of the Sancho Panzo line could be discontinued as far as I am concerned. However, from a business perspective as an executive of HSA, I would say that it would easily be a justifiable investment to spend $2M in an attempt to revitalize the Sancho Panza brand. $2M is a small fraction of the $360M HSA made in 2009 from cigar sales. That said, I don't think repackaging or introducing an RE or new vitola is the answer. If you want to save SP, you do as Jacksfull mentioned. You reinvent the brand as a lower market tripa corta cigar. You cut costs, and hopefully increase the volume of sales down market to make up for the lost margin. The marca's name survives, and that is some history, which is better than no history if the marca were to be eliminated.

[Guest rob]

I'm sorry Schmerr.... but the capatilist in me says that if the world (a generalisation of course) doesn't want them... or if they aren't good enough to cut it against the competition... hasta la vista.

In the same way that all sorts of brands, from all manner of different products (from biscuits to cars) have fallen on their swords... I don't see why historical significance is a valid reason to keep it alive. People will always vote with their wallets, not with romantic and fond memories.

I applaude your enthusiasm and your campaigning to save them... because ultimately that is a valid way of drumming up interest and trying to save it... but if they end up failing you can rest assured it was because they weren't profitable, werent popular enough or that the company was managed poorly. Most corporate and product failures stem from these reasons.

[El Presidente]

Congrats gentlemen. You have just replicated a HSA marketing meeting

[ChanceSchmerr]

So........I'm basically playing the role of the old guy in the HSA meeting, concerned with fairness and preserving the past, and getting voted down by the capitalists and business suits.

That's kind of depressing. I guess I'm just naive to think that some things are worth saving.

[in0gravity]

Hope I am not too late on this.

I would take the 2 million. But instead of going black dress boxes would go with black and gold cabinets instead (10, 25 maybe 50) plus your standard tubos packaging of 3 cigars (black and gold of course). Then boost it up to a multi local brand instead of a local brand, to enhance availability. Change the blend to a cigar with more flavor, maybe even going to medium/full. And to top it off let's do a maduro wrapper.

I like the idea of a Sancho Panza Robusto (calling it "Viento"?) as a new cigar. Would also go for a Dalia (can you imagine it in a 3-4-3 or 8-9-8 black and gold varnished box). Sorry, getting carried away.

In general, HSA should focus more on the local brands. This years La Gloria Cubana Inmensos and Ramon Allones Allones Superiores are a step in the right direction.

Happy smoking

Lars

[audio1der]

Molinos (w/age) are my only SP box.

I don't buy singles of ANYTHING.

[Omskakas]

I haven't bought neither. I have in interest to try singles someday.

However, Sancho Panza is kickass as a brand name. It has some potential if redesigned. It would need new band, box and release. But to be honest, why bother? I would rather like to see this happen with Diplomaticos.

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

So........I'm basically playing the role of the old guy in the HSA meeting, concerned with fairness and preserving the past, and getting voted down by the capitalists and business suits.

That's kind of depressing. I guess I'm just naive to think that some things are worth saving.

I'm with you, Chance. Even though I can take it or leave it, Sancho Panza still deserves to survive, and it does have its devotees. Unfortunately, nostalgia and sentiment seem to count for little among the movers and the shakers. The powers-that-be made serious errors of judgment in withdrawing some highly regarded vitolas in recent times.

[MIKA27]

Perhaps I missed something, but Prez, are you going to divulge the reason (If any) for this thread mate? It's been great reading everyones comment both positive and negative.

I for one as stated earlier have tried Belicosos and they were pretty good.

So... What's the deal bud?

[Padrino]

Another brand for the chopping block ?

If Sancho Panza does go i'll miss them dearly

Sancho Panza used to be quite a seller in Spain, anyone know if that's still the case ??

[Colt45]

Interesting - under the current system, I consider Habanos the brand and the different marques variations on a theme or perhaps different models.

Want to truly save the marque? Have the Cuban government allow HSA to sell it off and let it go private. Sell it to Cubans who are real cigar people.

If they are considering discontinuing the brand as a whole, they'd have nothing to lose and money to gain.