Rare Cubans

[Van55]

I agree 100%

Discretion should be used in these sensitive matters.

Jose

What, exactly, do you mean by that?

Fact: Adam Collins described the box of "Behikes" as one of twenty-five rolled after the production of the original Elie Bleu Behikes was coompleted.

Fact: In a post at cA, Adam Collins changed his story and said that the gift "Behikes" were part of the original production overruns needed to assure that the cigars in the the Elie Bleu humidors matched perfectly.

Fact: Adam Collins stated that the after-market "Behikes" were not approved or authorized by HSA, because they were not to be sold.

Fact: Adam Collins stated that the after-market "Behikes" were given to those involved in the producton of the originial Behikes, including rollers [sic -- there was only one roller], sorters etc.

Fact: The suggestion that Cubatabaco "gave" cigars selling for over $1000.00 each to Cuban factory workers is ridiculous on its face.

Fact: Adam Collins stated that a couple of the recipients of the gift "Behikes" chose to sell them rather than keep or smoke them.

Fact: The "Behikes" in the video bear Behike bands with printed numbers.

Fact: The original Behike bands bore hand-written numbers.

Fact: The top left cigar in the box showed by Adam Collins is numbered 4581.

Fact: If, as Adam Collins stated, the gift "Behike" boxes were numbered consecutively from 4001-5000, the top left cigar in Adam's box should be numbered 4561, not 4581.

Fact: Despite being asked directly why Cubatabaco would bother numbering the individual bands on extra "Behikes" to be given away, Adam Collins has offered no explanation.

Fact: Adam Collins stated that Jimmy Ng has another box of these gift Behikes in his shop in Singapore.

Fact: The "Gift Behike" box on Jimmy Ng's website is a different color, and the cigars inside do not bear numbered Behike bands.

Fact: Adam Collins states on the video that every Cuban cigar delivered as a diplomatic gift bears a distinctive "Palma Real" band.

Fact: There is no other evidence anywhere that Cuban diplomatic gift cigars bear such a band. See, e.g. MRN pp. 69. 116, 119.

Fact: Adam Collins states that the box of 88 Cohiba Sublimes and Sublimes Extra was one of those made to be given by Raul Castro to Russian dignitaries during his visit to Russia in late 2008.

Fact: Raul Castro did not visit Russia until early 2009.

Fact: Cigarros, who is in position to know, states that no such gift cigars have ever been giving to Russian government officials.

Fact: Adam Collins states on the video that the boxes of fifty Cohiba Genios were diplomatic gifts for those attending the "Summit of Non Aligned Countries" in Havana.

Fact: Results of Bing searches: "We did not find any results for non aligned summit Havana 'diplomatic cigars'. " "We did not find any results for non aligned summit Havana "gift cigars".

Fact: Adam Collins stated at cA that he would return from Havana with "proof" that the cigars he showed on the video are as he described him there.

Fact: Adam Collins declines to provide any such proof.

Conclusion: Draw your own. But be sure to use discretion.

[tandblov]

I agree 100%

Discretion should be used in these sensitive matters.

Jose

It wasn't so "sensitive" when Adam "starred" in a video about these and other "rarities". A video, I might add, that was produced by his good friend and good customer Jon Caputo (whose reputation in the cigar world occilates between non-existent and complete dirt).

This situation reminds me of the whole Manuel situation a few years back. Manuel was being outed as selling fakes, and the usual number of white knights came to his defense with similar arguments, all of which only served to protect the profits of a peddler of counterfit habanos. However well intentioned, their efforts only prolonged Manuel's ability to rip people off for serious dough.

I for one appreciate the info being shared and uncovered. It only serves to protect cigar smokers around the world from those who would separate them from their money via misrepresentation.

Bottom line, these are not part of the original run of 4000 behikes. Hence, they are not Behikes.

Also, I still remember Vitasea and his "Behike" overruns...

[Colt45]

Conclusion: Draw your own. But be sure to use discretion.

Fact: As of yet, nothing has been proven either way.

Fact: None of us here are the cuban cigar police.

guilty until proven innocent.

[Van55]

Fact: As of yet, nothing has been proven either way.

Fact: None of us here are the cuban cigar police.

guilty until proven innocent.

Fact: Colt, you're an idiot.

Fact: Nobody's been arrested by anyone -- the irrefutable facts have been set forth.

Fact: The jury is out as far as I am concerned. Everyone can draw their own conclusions from the irrefutable facts.

[compitaveggie]

Fact: As of yet, nothing has been proven either way.

Fact: None of us here are the cuban cigar police.

guilty until proven innocent.

X2

Jose

[Van55]

A cupcake has gone missing from the countertop in your kitchen. Looking at the floor, you see small muddy sneaker prints leading from the outside kitchen door to the counter area where the cupcake was and then away toward the interior of your house. You go to your young son's bedroom and find his muddy sneakers on the floor. You look in his wastebasket and find a cupcake paper.

I know you have to use discretion in such sensitive matters as accusing your son of taking the cupcake, don't you? After all, nothing has been proven conclusively!

Some people choose to be obtuse, I guess.

[compitaveggie]

A cupcake has gone missing from the countertop in your kitchen. Looking at the floor, you see small muddy sneaker prints leading from the outside kitchen door to the counter area where the cupcake was and then away toward the interior of your house. You go to your young son's bedroom and find his muddy sneakers on the floor. You look in his wastebasket and find a cupcake paper.

I know you have to use discretion in such sensitive matters as accusing your son of taking the cupcake, don't you? After all, nothing has been proven conclusively!

Some people choose to be obtuse, I guess.

Chill out Van.

I am not trying to argue with you.

I said use discretion because two other respectable dealers are also involved and they could also easily brought in this mess

You have used discretion by rarely mentioning either one and with the London dealer you have yet to mention who he is exactly. Thats good in my opinion.

I don't know Adam and will probably never meet him. I have no loyalty to him.

Remember I'm the self appointed Ca forum cop and you are the self appointed Cuban cigar cop, its all good.

Crap from other forums stays out the door here Van, I have no intentions of bringing that here and I hope we are both adults enough to understand that.

Peace out

Jose

[Tampa1257]

This is a Strong Warning to all on this thread, argue the subject and DO NOT make this PERSONAL. It is becoming very close to having this thread be locked up, understand?

[stargazer14]

Partypooper.

[cigarros]

Yes Sir! Well done!

[Ken Gargett]

A cupcake has gone missing from the countertop in your kitchen. Looking at the floor, you see small muddy sneaker prints leading from the outside kitchen door to the counter area where the cupcake was and then away toward the interior of your house. You go to your young son's bedroom and find his muddy sneakers on the floor. You look in his wastebasket and find a cupcake paper.

I know you have to use discretion in such sensitive matters as accusing your son of taking the cupcake, don't you? After all, nothing has been proven conclusively!

Some people choose to be obtuse, I guess.

i've missed a great deal of this but re the cupcake, why is it (actually i know why - tv shows) that people think circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict? of course it is, though it should be balanced appropriately. there are a great many people in jail on nothing more than circumstantial evidence. sometimes there is nothing else. if the jury or judge, depending on the system and location, find it enough - unless one is in a jurisdiction where legislators have decreed that mere circumstantial evidence is not sufficent - then go to jail, do not pass go. etc.

[Ken Gargett]

I find it interesting that Rob, Smithy nor Ken has commented on this post.

-P

only just found it and starting to look through it. but it is six pages and the rugby starts shortly so don't hold your breath.

[El Presidente]

I find it interesting that Rob, Smithy nor Ken has commented on this post.

-P

Rob is too smart to do so. ken will no doubt post shortly

[Ken Gargett]

Rob is too smart to do so. ken will no doubt post shortly

6 pages to get through? are you kidding? reds on soon so no chance.

seriously, if i took the time to do that, i'd be no better than those talking about my duds so not with a barge pole. is there anything of interest?

[Van55]

None other than Simon Chase has declared the Behikes to be fakes.

http://cigars.co.uk/forum/behike-question

[compitaveggie]

None other than Simon Chase has declared the Behikes to be fakes.

http://cigars.co.uk/forum/behike-question

Pretty much stated the obvious. I think very few at this point thought they were real. What we really want to know is if Adam and others knew they were fake or if they were fooled as well.

The best info would be to find out who supplied these cigars.

I doubt we will get any more answers, so this reply by Simon is probably as good as it will get.

Jose

[Van55]

Pretty much stated the obvious.

That's what I have been saying for quite some time, Jose. You certainly dragged your feet toward that conclusion until today. Nice change-up, amigo.

[compitaveggie]

That's what I have been saying for quite some time, Jose. You certainly dragged your feet toward that conclusion until today. Nice change-up, amigo.

I actually thought that all along. It would be nice if you or anybody else can find out where these cigars came from though.

Regardless thanks for taking the time searching for the truth.

Jose

[Van55]

I actually thought that all along. It would be nice if you or anybody else can find out where these cigars came from though.

Regardless thanks for taking the time searching for the truth.

Jose

At this point, one can only speculate or make an educated guess.

There are two possible sources, I think: (1) the backdoor of a factory in Cuba; or (2) one of the many non-factory counterfeit operations in Cuba.

The packaging of the Behikes suggests the former, as does the fact that Jimmy Ng shows a similar box on his web site. There's little question that someone with the right coin and the right connections can commission factory production of "custom rolls". And there's little question that those involved in factory production of Cuban cigars do not earn a living wage. So there are probably many inventive ways for those involve in factory production to supplement their incomes. See Rob's post on why so many Cuban cigars have been underfilled these days.

That said, the question and answer exchange on Yahoo that I posted some days back that reflects that three boxes of the "post-production" Behikes were offered to a guy on the streets of Havana for $3000.00 each, suggests a non-factory counterfeit operation to me. The same is true of the fact that VitaSea was offering "factory second" Behikes as long ago as 2006.

I think factory backdoor supply is the most likely source, all things considered. Havana Humidor and Jimmy Ng both have the contacts and the wherewithall to have obtained them from an unscrupulous, but capitalistic factory manager, and they would be unlikely to have publicly displayed the cigars if they were not Cuban factory cigars, but were street-rolled fakes.

[Buch0]

I always thought it was a matter of time to be honest.. Cheers for your persistence Van.

[compitaveggie]

At this point, one can only speculate or make an educated guess.

There are two possible sources, I think: (1) the backdoor of a factory in Cuba; or (2) one of the many non-factory counterfeit operations in Cuba.

The packaging of the Behikes suggests the former, as does the fact that Jimmy Ng shows a similar box on his web site. There's little question that someone with the right coin and the right connections can commission factory production of "custom rolls". And there's little question that those involved in factory production of Cuban cigars do not earn a living wage. So there are probably many inventive ways for those involve in factory production to supplement their incomes. See Rob's post on why so many Cuban cigars have been underfilled these days.

That said, the question and answer exchange on Yahoo that I posted some days back that reflects that three boxes of the "post-production" Behikes were offered to a guy on the streets of Havana for $3000.00 each, suggests a non-factory counterfeit operation to me. The same is true of the fact that VitaSea was offering "factory second" Behikes as long ago as 2006.

I think factory backdoor supply is the most likely source, all things considered. Havana Humidor and Jimmy Ng both have the contacts and the wherewithall to have obtained them from an unscrupulous, but capitalistic factory manager, and they would be unlikely to have publicly displayed the cigars if they were not Cuban factory cigars, but were street-rolled fakes.

Hey Van,

I just read what was written about the Palma bands on HCF. I just remembered that I had seen a video on You Tube in spanish with a guy at El Laguito with cigars that had the Palma band. I also saw pictures, can't remember if it was in one of my cigar books, a book from the library or the internet where these were shown in a showcase at EL Laguito. I always knew the Behike bands were fake but I still am clueless as to the Palma bands. In the past I would have assumed from the pictures that they do exist as legit cigars.

I will try to get look threw my books at home and see if I find the picture. When I get home I will also check youtube becasue it is block at work.

Jose

[compitaveggie]

Hey Van,

I found these pictures of Diplomatic cigars and the box from Nino's Flying Cigar website while they were at El Laguito.

This link has been posted with permission of Nino

http://www.flyingcigar.de/travel_cigars/20..._and_domino.php

If you scroll to the bottom you can see the box and the bands.

Jose

[mrcoin]

Hey Van,

I found these pictures of Diplomatic cigars and the box from Nino's Flying Cigar website while they were at El Laguito.

This link has been posted with permission of Nino

http://www.flyingcigar.de/travel_cigars/20..._and_domino.php

If you scroll to the bottom you can see the box and the bands.

Jose

Did you mean you found the pictures or you found Andy Ryan's post at the HCF forum this morning? They were from the 2009 trip, not 2010.

It still is not clear to me if these Palma Real bands are truly diplomatic bands or merely bands put on gift cigars of any kind from Cuba.

One thing is very clear though. An authentic box diplomatic cigars is one that actually passed through the hands of a diplomat. It will come with a letter. Anything purchased from a factory, whether it be back door, front door, side or or thrown from the balcony is not an authentic diplomatic cigar. Anyone selling these "factory sourced" items and calling them authentic diplomatic cigars is committing a fraudulent act.

[MPS]

Did you mean you found the pictures or you found Andy Ryan's post at the HCF forum this morning? They were from the 2009 trip, not 2010.

It still is not clear to me if these Palma Real bands are truly diplomatic bands or merely bands put on gift cigars of any kind from Cuba.

One thing is very clear though. An authentic box diplomatic cigars is one that actually passed through the hands of a diplomat. It will come with a letter. Anything purchased from a factory, whether it be back door, front door, side or or thrown from the balcony is not an authentic diplomatic cigar. Anyone selling these "factory sourced" items and calling them authentic diplomatic cigars is committing a fraudulent act.

Nothing is clear in Cuba.

[Van55]

Nothing is clear in Cuba.

That might be the most accurate statement of all on this thread.

Indeed, most of what has been said here is bascially informed speculation.

What we do know is that three separate vendors have shown pictures of "rare diplomatic gift" cigars on their websites on on the video, apparently offering or having offered to sell them to the general public as such. One of these claims to source exclusively from the LCCH disctributor for his region, but admits to acquiring them from a different source.

I would be stunned to learn that Habanos s.a. has distributed any diplomatic gift cigars to vendors for sale to the public. If I am right, the source of these boxes must the direct from the factory or from one or more of the donees of the gifts (highly unlikely IMO). The logical conclusion for me is that these are back door factory rolled cigars sold at a premium to individual vendors for resale at a huge profit upon the [mis]representation that they are "diplomatic" cigars.

What does it really matter? Very little to me, becuase I will never be in the market for such cigars. But it does reveal something surprising to me about the vendors. And if my supposition is accurate, it says a ton about the risks that some in the Cuban cigar industry are willing to go to to supplement their meager government wages.