Polar Bears Prefer Bread

[DrunkenMonkey]

If you don't totally agree with their doctrine you are called a climate change denier or a climate change skeptic. All rhetoric designed to make you sound like a kook.

Warren, it's just my opinion, but I don't think you need their help.

[Warren]

Warren, it's just my opinion, but I don't think you need their help.

Ok yeah so I'm a ******* Kook.

[Alberto_Magnus]

Well it seems you (I mean all parties involved) see the whole issue from a very political perspective.

I think one would need to cool down and try to consider it from a more detached perspective.

Disclaimer: I don't care about ecological organizations (as for most organizations), what you called "bleeding heart liberals" etc.etc. But let's look at facts.

Warren, I understand what you mean, but I don't think the whole issue concerns only the actual heat, if it's rising or not.

It's about the fact that a subtle change in temperature can dramatically alter the climate balance.

Maybe it's not easy to notice where you are from (I read Brisbane, Australia, a great place btw ), where there is a humid subtropical climate ranging from hot summers to mild winters.

I come from Naples, Italy. You know, the Mediterranean and such.

Well I'm 33 and until I was 15-16 we were used to the Mediterranean 4 seasons: mild autumns (cold and usually sunny), cold winters (sometimes snow etc.), mild springs (warm and sunny) to hot summers (humid, hot and pleasant -- ok now this starts sounding like a porn movie ).

Now this distinction does not exist any more, period. I mean it's there for all us Italians to see, left-wing, right-wing or who-cares.

I agree with what you state: climate changes. That's a fact.

But it's weird that in a 33-year-timespan (my age) I've seen such dramatic changes!

I mean, in November, as an example, we just had a freezing week with sunny weather (2-3° - ok for the Swedes, that's not that cold for you, but cold for us ), then a week later it switched to 20°, humid and rainforest-like pourings.

I had never seen such blowing winds here as in the past 4-5 years.

And it's like that for all of Italy. Coldwaves. Then heatwaves in the middle of December. Then storms, floods, we had more climate-related disasters in 2 years than in the past 30.

From a citizen, climate-oriented perspective as the one of an Italian can be, we call that climate change!!!

I travel a lot and I see that similar things happen all over Europe, and regardless of political orientations many people agree that there is something wrong indeed, without having to call for Eco-lobbies (which I despise as much as industrial lobbies).

[El Presidente]

Alberto I agree that change is underway. The Brisbane climate of today is different to when I was growing up here. The problem is if you speak to old timers, it was different in the 40's to when I grew up in the 70's.

Climate change is a given. It is a natural event at its core.

I wish people would talk of Climate management where each country plays a part for a global output objective. If you don't play ball then you have a 50% tarriff slapped on your goods.

Unfortunately much of the world is rightfully sceptical of the people involved. Gore, Greens, Report tampering scientists, two faced politicians.

There is nothing wrong with the elimination of coal power by 2030 as long as Nuclear power is accepted as a legitimate source. There is nothing wrong with mandating a 50 MPG minimum by 2020 on all new vehicles and the elimination of the internal combustion engine in New cars by 2035.

That should take you back to the 50's in terms of level of emissions. If Japan, EU, and the US agreed to the above measures it is game over. China and India can spit and shake as much as they want to but right now they are not in the position to lead this debate. Left unchecked for a another 10 years they may be and it won't be for the better.

Jokenhagen saw all the players show their cards. The US is the breaker. If it sides with Europe/Japan then there is 75% of the worlds GDP right there. That is enough for a Global Enviro 0 tariff trade group. China and India are obstructionist. They need to be placed in the sin bin to rethink their commitment. A 7.5% per annum rising import tarriff on all goods and services will do that nicely.

[armedak]

The fact is climate change or global warming, or whatever you want to call it, is underway and the trends are not encouraging. I've been observing the changes in Alaskan glaciers and the arctic pack ice for over thirty-four years in the arctic. The aerial photography, remote sensing, and satellite imagery over time tell the tale. The most ominous trend is that glacial recession and the pack ice declines have been accelerating over time and over previous predictions.

The plight of the polar bear is just a symptom of the bigger problem. At what point do we reach a tipping point where the climatic system is unable to return to a stable equilibrium and the sea level wordwide rises and inundates low lying cities and infrastructure. I know it sounds like a bad science fiction movie but if the trends continue we could be in for some nasty consequences, and I'm not talking about dead or drowning polar bears.

[Warren]

You know I may come off as a kook right now but we need to question those who want to push this through.

The question is not does the climate change, of course it does.

The real question has to be is it anthropogenic climate change or is it the natural way of the world.

We know with out doubt that we have had ice ages and we have had warming periods.

We know for sure that man has never been responsible for the past changes, how could he, he wasn't burning coal back then.

I am yet to see a good argument for a man made change.

What I do see is the argument for man made change unraveling day by day.

What I should do at this point is apologize for taking this thread in a direction that I'm sure Ken had no intention of going.

Sorry Ken my friend.

I'm a little passionate about this topic and the photo of the polar bears is just the sort of image that is manipulated by the bloody Al Gores of this world.

Now lets get back to the cigars.

[cigarros]

Did not think that this post will cause such hot discussion! Yes. Climate change is a reality. According to scientific researches most will suffer coastal areas of Europe and Asia. Global warming will cause lifting level of world ocean on some metres. Under the most pessimistic forecast under water there will be some countries, for example, Holland..... And in traditional winemakers countries will come extraordinary cold winters...

Last week on one Russian TV channel showed news: french wine makers from Bordeaux have landed some hectares of vineyards in Siberia. What is it? Insurance on the future? Or capture of the new markets?

[Warren]

Did not think that this post will cause such hot discussion! Yes. Climate change is a reality. According to scientific researches most will suffer coastal areas of Europe and Asia. Global warming will cause lifting level of world ocean on some metres. Under the most pessimistic forecast under water there will be some countries, for example, Holland..... And in traditional winemakers countries will come extraordinary cold winters...

Last week on one Russian TV channel showed news: french wine makers from Bordeaux have landed some hectares of vineyards in Siberia. What is it? Insurance on the future? Or capture of the new markets?

Finally some good news.

Who the hell needs the Dutch anyway.

[Kangaroo495]

Can't wait for Moscow to become a tropical paradise...

[DrunkenMonkey]

Ok yeah so I'm a ******* Kook.

Warren, I wasn't suggesting that you are a kook or any other disagreeable thing. I was commenting on what you said, and not what you are or aren't. I don't know you, and so I wouldn't have any basis for such a conclusion.

[samb]

Has anyone see The Day After Tomorrow? A nice fictional example of what could possibly happen due to climate change (global warming).

My take on it is that it does exist, it is happening, but its a natural part of life. The Gore's of the world are IMO just afraid of freezing to death... Whether or not we take steps to stop the change is irrelevant, its part of the cycle of Earth and is due to happen soon (next couple of centuries). We cant prevent the inevitable. What I think is really gonna wipe us out is a super bug, ie strain of flu, drug resistant bacteria, etc. And the inevitable coming ice age will be just what we need to cleanse the Earth of whatever killed us off.

[thechenman]

I just hope the next inhabitants of this planet have the fortune and pleasure of experiencing Cuban tobacco as it is today...

[PigFish]

You know I may come off as a kook right now but we need to question those who want to push this through.

The question is not does the climate change, of course it does.

The real question has to be is it anthropogenic climate change or is it the natural way of the world.

We know with out doubt that we have had ice ages and we have had warming periods.

We know for sure that man has never been responsible for the past changes, how could he, he wasn't burning coal back then.

I am yet to see a good argument for a man made change.

What I do see is the argument for man made change unraveling day by day.

What I should do at this point is apologize for taking this thread in a direction that I'm sure Ken had no intention of going.

Sorry Ken my friend.

I'm a little passionate about this topic and the photo of the polar bears is just the sort of image that is manipulated by the bloody Al Gores of this world.

Now lets get back to the cigars.

You're no kook amigo! You are someone who realizes that some will stop at nothing to drive the masses to believing anything that in turn empowers themselves as a result. I am not going to weigh in on this with my perception of facts, I doubt it will convince any one of anything. I just want to weigh in on your side Warren. This is noting but a money and freedom grab. If there was money and power in the belief in Santa Clause some group would take it upon themselves to attempt to prove it. - Piggy

[Warren]

Warren, I wasn't suggesting that you are a kook or any other disagreeable thing. I was commenting on what you said, and not what you are or aren't. I don't know you, and so I wouldn't have any basis for such a conclusion.

Yes I'm sorry I've just been in a foul mood.

Although if you had you may have been right at the moment.

[Warren]

You're no kook amigo! You are someone who realizes that some will stop at nothing to drive the masses to believing anything that in turn empowers themselves as a result. I am not going to weigh in on this with my perception of facts, I doubt it will convince any one of anything. I just want to weigh in on your side Warren. This is noting but a money and freedom grab. If there was money and power in the belief in Santa Clause some group would take it upon themselves to attempt to prove it. - Piggy

Thankyou Piggy I really appreciate it.

[CigarmanTim]

I was enthused that at the Copenhagen the Speaker of the Danish Parlament stood up and delivered a very truthful statement. Say what we know not what we believe. A good quick read.

http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article851820.ece

[PigFish]

Thankyou Piggy I really appreciate it.

You are welcome my friend.

As I say I have no intention on making a fight of this especially on the grounds of their arguemtns or their fraudulent conclusions. If I were to make such an argument I would suggest a Google of Richard Lindzen and his work on the rates of heat transfer as it pertains to energy in the atmosphere.

My father a gifted and brilliant physicists taught me to look for the simple solution first. These guys cannot predict tomorrows weather with any certainty. I find it hard to believe that one or more of them can predict what the mean heat of the planet will be 10 years from now. One would be similarly served to depend on the Mayan calendar to short the commodities market! - Piggy

[Ken Gargett]

first, apols. i had no intention of sending this thread off on this tangent (but nice to find another 'forum button').

i never use the term global warming - always climate change. not sure why i did this time.

and as for rudd, he'd support kiddy fiddling if he thought that there was a vote in it. and abbott has taken the opposite view simply because no votes in following rudd but might be some in taking the diametrically opposing view, whatever that is. i vote for saving the bears by feeding those two grubs to them.

interesting comment from rob re our youth. i'm (marginally) older than rob and i feel we are much closer to what we had as a kid than what we do now. went for many years when we didn't see the rain. had more of it as a kid but recent years have seen a revival. but definitely changes.

warren/piggy et al, there is no doubt that many use whatever they can for their own purposes, and fool on us if we let them. that said, there is no doubt that changes are afoot and they seem to be accelerating. however, change has certainly been happening forever and i suspect that we are in a period where the earth is much cooler than it has been many times. but swinging towards warmer in general - how much of this is caused by humans and how much is just coming is hard to tell. this will cause massive problems, not least possibly push the polar bears, and much else, to extinction. it is something that may well have happened naturally if man didn't exist but i do suspect that we have contributed.

it seems to me that we (referring to the climate change concept supporters) are trying to freeze (no pun intended) the earth as it is now when nature simply won't allow it.

we have the proverbial snowball's chance.

[Warren]

Hi Ken how have you been Mate, I dropped by your place this afternoon to say Gday but your car wasn't in the drive and as I know you park wine in your garage I assumed you were out.

It's good to have this discussion and I guess it was me who hijacked this thread.

I do find it interesting that the main theme of this conversation has been to not believe the political line.

It's refreshing to see that many of us are prepared to ask questions and not just accept the Gore mantra.

Ever since this nonsense started I have found it the height of arrogance to assume that man has influence over the planet.

It is the planet that has power over us.

[rahko]

In my view the problem is that the following is presented as facts by the political agenda:

1. Our actions have caused global warming

2. We can reverse this process

3. Our goverments can do this through taxation

I have doubts on all points, but the last one is absolutely mind-boggling.

Most disturbing is that this has become the sole 'environmental issue' and and all the other very real and massive ways in which we harm our habitat have been forgotten in the process.

[Warren]

Taxation, that's always the solution for a politician.

We drink too much.

They raise the tax on alcohol.

We smoke too much.

They raise the tax on tobacco.

Have we stopped drinking, have we stopped smoking.

Hell no we just keep paying more.

So what do you think we are going to do with power consumption.

That's right we'll just keep paying more. The cost of everything associated with it will rise exponentially.

So the growth industry will become carbon credit trading.

Do you think that as an individual you will bed able to start your own trading company.

No of course not that has already been allocated and it doesn't include you and me.

I have a dream.

If we were allowed to trade carbon credits on a personal basis I could just stay in bed.

All the carbon I was saving by not driving my car, by not turning my lights on, I could sell off to someone who needed those credits.

Just give me a good single malt and a big box of fine cubans and I'll be as happy as a pig in ****.

[MontrealRon]

Yeah, the world's climate seems to be rather unstable,

and this trend might well be increasing.

Still, history shows many instances of drastically changeable weather.

Has human activity contributed to this instability; if so, by how much;

and is there really anything that can realisticly be done to reverse this trend?

For me, the jury is still out.

There are two things, though, of which I am convinced:

1) Cap and trade is a scam.

Even if "global warming" were exactly as its advocates describe,

this scheme would do nothing to mitigate it.

It is all about money.

2) Again, regardless of the science, the concept of "global warming" is being used by certain powerful forces to further an agenda leading to a world government.

Since getting from here to there will meet considerable resistance,

it is first necessary to soften up the population, especially in the "free" world.

This is best accomplished by the spreading of fear.

Once adequately terrified, people are easily manipulated,

and will abandon their freedoms for the comfort of their leader/savior.

It has happened before, and can happen again.

- Bin Laden is coming!!!

- The Pandemic will kill everyone!! Rush to get vaccinated!!!

- Financial Panic!!! Forget about unions, decent wages and working conditions!

- The Enemy out there/among us must be destroyed, before they get us!!!

- "Global Warming" will fry/freeze/drown us unless we transfer massive wealth to third-world dictators!!!

(though how this would even begin to solve the "problem" beats me!),

and we must drastically lower our standard of living so that the angry gods of warming may spare us!!!

It is all our fault!!! We must repent, and pay for our sins!!!

And let us not forget, o sinners, how much CO2 is released by smoking even one cigar!

[PigFish]

...There are two things, though, of which I am convinced:

1) Cap and trade is a scam.

Even if "global warming" were exactly as its advocates describe,

this scheme would do nothing to mitigate it.

It is all about money.

2) Again, regardless of the science, the concept of "global warming" is being used by certain powerful forces to further an agenda leading to a world government.

Since getting from here to there will meet considerable resistance,

it is first necessary to soften up the population, especially in the "free" world.

This is best accomplished by the spreading of fear.

Once adequately terrified, people are easily manipulated,

and will abandon their freedoms for the comfort of their leader/savior.

It has happened before, and can happen again.

- Bin Laden is coming!!!

- The Pandemic will kill everyone!! Rush to get vaccinated!!!

- Financial Panic!!! Forget about unions, decent wages and working conditions!

- The Enemy out there/among us must be destroyed, before they get us!!!

- "Global Warming" will fry/freeze/drown us unless we transfer massive wealth to third-world dictators!!!

(though how this would even begin to solve the "problem" beats me!),

and we must drastically lower our standard of living so that the angry gods of warming may spare us!!!

It is all our fault!!! We must repent, and pay for our sins!!!

And let us not forget, o sinners, how much CO2 is released by smoking even one cigar!

I would have to say that I agree with most of this above statement.

In our lifetimes it would be hard to measure anything resembling an ambient change in climate on a 4 billion plus year old planet. If you look at a smooth surface under a microscope you will see peaks and valleys. So then what is the surface? Smooth or rough, up or down, it all depends on a perspective and a sample size.

What is actually happening to the global environment? I don't know! I am betting that no one does not just because I don't know but for many, many reasons. This is what I do know. The powerful men on the planet have always used (historically) their power to gain more power from other men. Fear (as was stated above) is a common tool. Mens' minds and their productivity are of real value on this planet. The fight to control that power has gone on throughout history and the masters of men have ranged from good to evil, from governments to churches.

Whereas the earth may change and we have little proof of it, it is apparent that the nature of man does not. Even the earthly attempts at communism, or collectivism, holocausts, eugenics and desire to perfect man have historically failed. Man is not perfectible; he is not a part of or made of dielectric material parts as some would postulate; imperfection is part of what makes a man a man. Perhaps he can be perfected and I am wrong. One thing is for sure, that regardless our individual theories, the earth and man will likely outlive all of our theories, fears and best or worst intentions!

Ken, my friend, you don't have to apologize for you opinions to me. Hope you are recovered and feeling better.

Best to you all Mates! - Piggy

[ARRV]

Taxation, that's always the solution for a politician.

We drink too much.

They raise the tax on alcohol.

We smoke too much.

They raise the tax on tobacco.

Have we stopped drinking, have we stopped smoking.

Hell no we just keep paying more.

So what do you think we are going to do with power consumption.

That's right we'll just keep paying more. The cost of everything associated with it will rise exponentially.

So the growth industry will become carbon credit trading.

Do you think that as an individual you will bed able to start your own trading company.

No of course not that has already been allocated and it doesn't include you and me.

Spot on

increase taxes to obtain more money to throw at people come election time.

If the world / western countries are truly serious about climate change then simply abolish ALL carbon / "greenhous" gas emitting objects - legislate for everyone to basically go live in a hut in the bush and eat raw vegetables - rather than try to influence behaviour through taxes. That would fix the problem.

Anyway everyone knows that warmer places are nicer than cold ones - can't swim at a beach in the Antartic - yet

[SethG]

Polar bear populations are almost at the peak ever seen. Do you know the odds of a Russian Sub running across some random bear out there????

That's how plentiful they are!

You Australians should get a kick out of this: California banned products using kangaroo leather because... it's an endangered animal that must be protected from hunting in Australia! Meanwhile motorcycle shops can't sell kangaroo skin gear legally. Did you guys know that you'll be out of Kangaroos in another year or two?

Tongue-in-cheek of course but just remember, the next time you're worried about the endangered polar bear that there's a whole state in the United States that is positive kangaroos are more endangered.

Nobody knows how people come to these asinine conclusions but there it is, California law.