Smells, Flavours and Subjectivity

[Ryan]

I was reading this article last night about a group of languages in Malaysia that has specific words to describe smells.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140103085248.htm

Basically, what some researchers seem to have shown is that speakers of these languages are much more consistent and concise when it comes to describing how things smell.

A nice example is "try to descibe the smell of cinnamon".

I was thinking about how this might relate to how we describe flavour when it comes to tasting cigars. Our sense of taste is very closely related to and heavily influenced by our sense of smell.

People who lose their sense of smell generally don't taste very much, certainly nothing like the range they did before.

None of us, with our range of languages here, as far as I know, have vocabulary for describing smells other than "like something else", eg. leather, cedar, toffee etc., though there probably are a few, "sweet" and possibly "sour"

On the other hand, to describe the colour of something, for example, we can say "red". Simple.

We can all see, from the results of cigar tastings( here, elsewhere and our own) that descriptions of flavours can vary widely as we try to pin down the layers of flavour we are perceiving, comparing the experience to something else.

To use the colours analogy, when we see something "red", we don't have to think of another "red" thing in order to realise that what we're looking at is "red". The word is there. It's just "red".

So I suppose my point is that maybe it's not only that we have a difficult time perceiving these odours and flavours from cigars (or wine or anything else), it's that we have a hard time describing them as most of us haven't grown up with the words to do so.

[Surucipe]

Very interesting topic! Indeed it's strange that we don't have a more direct or accurate way to describe smells, especially as it's such a sensitive tool of recognition (e.g. how certain smells can instantly bring back childhood memories).

[Orion21]

I think we all have the "tools" to describe what we taste/smell, but some have the experience and fast recall to link it up before it's gone. What I mean is the more Chocolate you eat the easier it will be to find the flavor when smoking a cigar. You will be more sensitive to it and be able to find the word faster. I drink a lot of espresso and coffee, so in my cigars I can tell the difference between the flavors of espresso and regular drip coffee. However, I have seen Oolong tea flavors used by several reviewers to describe what they get from Cohiba. I know Oolong tea, but I do not know how it tastes. If that flavor is in a cigar I will not be able to identify it.

My main point is that the more flavors and smells you become familiar with the more you will find them in the things you eat, drink and smoke.

[PapaDisco]

You'd think that the wine industry would be ahead of us on this; specific words for specific scents, but they're not, they do the same "hints-of-blackberries-with-toadstools-and-precocious-elderberries" kind of rhapsodizing that we do.

[paulF]

I think we all have the "tools" to describe what we taste/smell, but some have the experience and fast recall to link it up before it's gone. What I mean is the more Chocolate you eat the easier it will be to find the flavor when smoking a cigar. You will be more sensitive to it and be able to find the word faster. I drink a lot of espresso and coffee, so in my cigars I can tell the difference between the flavors of espresso and regular drip coffee. However, I have seen Oolong tea flavors used by several reviewers to describe what they get from Cohiba. I know Oolong tea, but I do not know how it tastes. If that flavor is in a cigar I will not be able to identify it.

My main point is that the more flavors and smells you become familiar with the more you will find them in the things you eat, drink and smoke.

+1 Not a chocolate person or a sweet tooth one either but recently started tasting dark chocolate,milk chocolate... in order to see if i can relate chocolate tastes to wine and Cigars and indeed it did make a difference. Doing the same with coffee these days too.

[Jeremy Festa]

Very interesting topic for discussion.

For me, I think, maybe it wasn't really necessary to have these words to describe odour in the first place, and that is why they never evolved, or were developed and added to the lexicon.

I almost feel that it is probably more fun that we do not have these words to describe odours. A beautiful use of modern metaphor and similes to describe what we smell and taste and provides us with a more creative use of adjectives and descriptions. I recall watching the wine doco 'Somm' about a group of young Sommeliers trying to get their Masters, and one guy used the description, 'freshly cut garden hose' or 'freshly opened can of tennis balls.' Thought it was brilliant. If taste and smell is subjective anyway, so should be our descriptions.

[Colt45]

My take is that it seems that perhaps they have more words to describe groups of aromas. They use the same term to describe gasoline, smoke, guano, etc. Smelling coffee and being asked what you smell - coffee. Being asked to describe what coffee smells like, or another word to describe it, perhaps a little different. But as it relates to cigars or wine, I guess if either were described as having a flavor tinged with coffee, most would get the gist.

There are many shades of purple

[Ryan]

I think we all have the "tools" to describe what we taste/smell, but some have the experience and fast recall to link it up before it's gone. What I mean is the more Chocolate you eat the easier it will be to find the flavor when smoking a cigar. You will be more sensitive to it and be able to find the word faster. I drink a lot of espresso and coffee, so in my cigars I can tell the difference between the flavors of espresso and regular drip coffee. However, I have seen Oolong tea flavors used by several reviewers to describe what they get from Cohiba. I know Oolong tea, but I do not know how it tastes. If that flavor is in a cigar I will not be able to identify it.

My main point is that the more flavors and smells you become familiar with the more you will find them in the things you eat, drink and smoke.

I agree with you 100% that it's only by experiencing different tastes and flavours that we gain the tools to describe them when we encounter them.

Although, I think what was shown by this study, when we lack words to describe smells other than comparisons to other things we are required to take an extra "cognitive leap", that is we are required to think of a thing to which we believe it is similar, which can lead to disparity and extra subjectivity.

..For me, I think, maybe it wasn't really necessary to have these words to describe odour in the first place, and that is why they never evolved, or were developed and added to the lexicon.

I almost feel that it is probably more fun that we do not have these words to describe odours. A beautiful use of modern metaphor and similes to describe what we smell and taste and provides us with a more creative use of adjectives and descriptions. I recall watching the wine doco 'Somm' about a group of young Sommeliers trying to get their Masters, and one guy used the description, 'freshly cut garden hose' or 'freshly opened can of tennis balls.' Thought it was brilliant. If taste and smell is subjective anyway, so should be our descriptions.

That's the thing, most of us speak a language that never had the requirement to have an abstract description of smell. We have a history of seeing stuff first before it could hurt us.

On the other hand, foragers living in dense forest in Malaysia with tigers and poisonous fruits maybe do have that requirement!

I like what you say about how we use simile to describe flavour but it is interesting to at least think about how much of that flavour really is subjective or is it to do with our lack of tools to describe it.

My take is that it seems that perhaps they have more words to describe groups of aromas. They use the same term to describe gasoline, smoke, guano, etc. Smelling coffee and being asked what you smell - coffee. Being asked to describe what coffee smells like, or another word to describe it, perhaps a little different. But as it relates to cigars or wine, I guess if either were described as having a flavor tinged with coffee, most would get the gist.

There are many shades of purple

I know what you're saying but I think there might be more to this discovery.

That is, that these Malaysians have, i.e. there exists, an "abstract" way to describe smells.

To use the colour analogy, for example, try to imagine we have no words for colours, as we have very few words, if any, for smells.

Then ask three people to describe the colour of a stop sign,

One might say, "the colour of a Coke can", another, "Santa Claus's suit", another, "strawberry". All still absolutely red but 3 very different things. This happens all the time when we describe smell, as comparisons are the only tools we have.

An example of smell might be, ask three people to describe the smell of Absinthe. An Asian person might say "Star anise", a Greek person might say "Ouzo" and (I know this one from experience) a high proportion of Irish people would say "licorice".

Or, try to imagine describing "red" to a blind person, not easy. But at least we have the actual word "red" to start with, it coldly "boxes it off". Then we could go on about red having the longest wavelength in the visible spectrum and other things that might make sense to a blind person.

Now try to imagine describing a smell, for example that of Oolong tea, to someone who cannot smell or taste.

You say, "There are many shades of purple"

Yes, but they're all still "purple"

Purple is what it is. It's abstract. It's not the name of anything. It does not have to describe anything neither is our experience of it influenced by cultural differences. We see it when we are very young, are told its name, then we have no problem using it correctly and consistently for the rest of our lives.

The fact that there is an abstract, definable (by it's wavelength) word for it enables us to describe it objectively as, purple.

This reminds me, for the wrong reasons, of a quote from a French writer who described "Beauty" as "The promise of happiness".

Really, he was only substituting one subjective term for another, but at least "happiness" is something that more of us have experienced more often and, thus, have more experience to compare.

[Fuzz]

You guys have never tasted purple? Oh boy, you don't know what you're missing out on. Though, the best tasting colour is cerulean.

[Overproof]

Bourbon smells like a squashed ant to me. Just sayin

[Jeremy Festa]

Bourbon smells like a squashed ant to me. Just sayin

Glad you did say mate!

Certain ants, when stood on, crushed, killed whatever, release formic acid. That's the smell. Get enough of them, crush them up, and you can clean those little oil drips off ya driveway!

[Jeremy Festa]

I agree with you 100% that it's only by experiencing different tastes and flavours that we gain the tools to describe them when we encounter them.

Although, I think what was shown by this study, when we lack words to describe smells other than comparisons to other things we are required to take an extra "cognitive leap", that is we are required to think of a thing to which we believe it is similar, which can lead to disparity and extra subjectivity.

That's the thing, most of us speak a language that never had the requirement to have an abstract description of smell. We have a history of seeing stuff first before it could hurt us.

On the other hand, foragers living in dense forest in Malaysia with tigers and poisonous fruits maybe do have that requirement!

I like what you say about how we use simile to describe flavour but it is interesting to at least think about how much of that flavour really is subjective or is it to do with our lack of tools to describe it.

I know what you're saying but I think there might be more to this discovery.

That is, that these Malaysians have, i.e. there exists, an "abstract" way to describe smells.

To use the colour analogy, for example, try to imagine we have no words for colours, as we have very few words, if any, for smells.

Then ask three people to describe the colour of a stop sign,

One might say, "the colour of a Coke can", another, "Santa Claus's suit", another, "strawberry". All still absolutely red but 3 very different things. This happens all the time when we describe smell, as comparisons are the only tools we have.

An example of smell might be, ask three people to describe the smell of Absinthe. An Asian person might say "Star anise", a Greek person might say "Ouzo" and (I know this one from experience) a high proportion of Irish people would say "licorice".

Or, try to imagine describing "red" to a blind person, not easy. But at least we have the actual word "red" to start with, it coldly "boxes it off". Then we could go on about red having the longest wavelength in the visible spectrum and other things that might make sense to a blind person.

Now try to imagine describing a smell, for example that of Oolong tea, to someone who cannot smell or taste.

You say, "There are many shades of purple"

Yes, but they're all still "purple"

Purple is what it is. It's abstract. It's not the name of anything. It does not have to describe anything neither is our experience of it influenced by cultural differences. We see it when we are very young, are told its name, then we have no problem using it correctly and consistently for the rest of our lives.

The fact that there is an abstract, definable (by it's wavelength) word for it enables us to describe it objectively as, purple.

This reminds me, for the wrong reasons, of a quote from a French writer who described "Beauty" as "The promise of happiness".

Really, he was only substituting one subjective term for another, but at least "happiness" is something that more of us have experienced more often and, thus, have more experience to compare.

Like what you say. The beauty of this is there is no right or wrong, and we'll probably never know. In terms of the colour analogy, I find the colour blindness conundrum fascinating. Imagine have the greens and reds skewed. And walking out onto a field of orange or red grass. You would never know the difference. Even someone saying describe the colour 'green,' and someone saying it is a 'cool' colour, rather than a 'warm' colour (referencing touch and temperature as a description). Well... to that colour blind person that field of orange or red grass, is still considered a cool colour, as it has been described and explained as such, which is in line with their visual perception, for their entire life.

On a completely separate note, I recall reading, some time ago, that humans/hominids used to have a much better sense of smell. One theory was that, as we domesticated dogs and lived communally, we no longer needed the required, acute sense of smell for hunting, or for detecting predators. We also lost some hearing for that matter. But this also freed up more cranial capacity for us to further develop language.

And now.... we can describe cigars as... "'t'was akin to chewin' on a premium Italian brogue, while, in the distance, my mother baked a brioche with the bialetti on the stove."

Can anyone guess what I am smoking?

[Ryan]

..On a completely separate note, I recall reading, some time ago, that humans/hominids used to have a much better sense of smell. One theory was that, as we domesticated dogs and lived communally, we no longer needed the required, acute sense of smell for hunting, or for detecting predators. We also lost some hearing for that matter. But this also freed up more cranial capacity for us to further develop language.

And now.... we can describe cigars as... "'t'was akin to chewin' on a premium Italian brogue, while, in the distance, my mother baked a brioche with the bialetti on the stove."

Can anyone guess what I am smoking?

I can't guess what you're smoking, is it purple?

But the dog theory is interesting and makes sense. "Use it or lose it", as the saying goes.

[Duxnutz]

Bourbon smells like a squashed ant to me. Just sayin

Blasphemy!

[Jeremy Festa]

I can't guess what you're smoking, is it purple?

But the dog theory is interesting and makes sense. "Use it or lose it", as the saying goes.

I wish! Ha ha was hoping someone would bite!

[cigaraholic]

We smoke a lot of purple out here in California......and yes there are many shades.

[Colt45]

...... I think there might be more to this discovery.

Absolutely - I don't discount it at all, but I guess it's one of those things that I'd have to look into more in depth in order to wrap my head around. Quick example - I think gasoline and smoke (wood smoke?) have distinct aromas, but the same word is used to describe both. So is it like a cigar flavor wheel? Probably more to it than that.

I find some sauv blancs to have a very distinct aroma of kerosene. If I were to smell this blind, would I describe it as kerosene, or would there be a more specific descriptor - intriguing....

Anyway, I'm off to pour some garnet......