Flavors That Indicate a Young Cigar Will Age Well?

[PapaDisco]

When you get a young cigar that has flavor, but is unimpressive; are there certain flavors that indicate it will age well? I was struck by Rob and Ken's recent Quai D'Orsay corona review (summary: "pleasant cigar but needs age") and some of the flavor similarities reported there and in a recent Partagas Series E Number 2 that I tried (LOE AGO 12); also a decent but unimpressive smoke that shared the same subtle, doughy/bread flavor that Rob and Ken reported with the Q D'Orsay.

Anyway, flavors like chocolate and honey and hay and leather seem to be common in various intensities across the spectrum of cigars of almost all ages, and so I don't think those would be good aging indicators, but are some of the odder, rarer tastes (like dough, like bread, like agglutinated oxidized hydrolyzed tumericase ) indicators that a cigar will be much better in 5 years?

[mk05]

If it tastes good young, it should taste good aged - save for a couple marcas that tend to do the ugly duckling thing. Without going into much details that have been discussed numerously over the years, it's very much like wine - is there fruit to survive the body (why I love listening to Ken chirp about cigars).

What you are talking about regarding QDO is not off - QDO is basically now an extention of Partagas IMO, so making slight comparisons to the E2 isn't farfetched. So it's not as much as cigar flavors being indicators, rather than you figuring out marca similarities.

[Stanislaw]

something i learned here on the forum is that strong spice burn in the back of your throat that signals a cigar that requires aging. if you can distinguish a few stronger flavors amidst the nicotine and ammonia, that's usually a sign that it can get better...

[Colt45]

I'm not sure there is anything that can assure whether or not a cigar will age well, but I've found a few things that usually let me know a cigar(s) will change (how it will change is never guaranteed) or is in transition.

Harshness / sharpness / sourness

Heavy mustiness

A kind of mouth watering / puckering quality - like eating a hard fruit candy or chewing a stick of fruit gum.

These are what come to mind off the top of my head.

[Edwhatever]

A very simplified analogy would be saying that an unripe fruit will taste better when its ripe.

Eating an unripe mango is still alright, while some cuisines require unripe mangos like Thai mango salad, but when you eat a mango when it is perfectly ripe, it is heaven.

When a cigar has harsh qualities or flavours that you dont like, aging may be a way of letting the cigar turn into something different, and maybe you'll like it then. But hey, if you like unripe mangos for their tanginess, by all means!

[Smallclub]

More than flavors, it's texture, fat, thickness of the smoke (what's called "la mâche" in the wine world, I don't know how it translates) that tells me if a cigar will evolve in the right way…

[ramon_cojones]

experience

[El Presidente]

I do agree with Smallclub and Ramon on this. it really is a mixture of the two.

[CaptainQuintero]

If it tastes good young, it should taste good aged - save for a couple marcas that tend to do the ugly duckling thing. Without going into much details that have been discussed numerously over the years, it's very much like wine - is there fruit to survive the body (why I love listening to Ken chirp about cigars).

What you are talking about regarding QDO is not off - QDO is basically now an extention of Partagas IMO, so making slight comparisons to the E2 isn't farfetched. So it's not as much as cigar flavors being indicators, rather than you figuring out marca similarities.

I haven't experienced this new partagas QDO yet, I have boxes up to recent production too. Just because they are being rolled at the partagas factory surely doesn't mean they will change the blend to be more partagas like?

Isn't nearly every marca rolled at partagas at some point too?

[Ken Gargett]

I do agree with Smallclub and Ramon on this. it really is a mixture of the two.

i'm largely in agreement (if i may 'chirp' in - i chirp? i never knew).

i honestly don't think that any flavours will say to you - ah, i have a cigar that will age. a possible exception, which will come from experience, might be that you recognise flavours from a marque that has proved itself as an 'ager' in the past.

but to look for cigars that age, forget flavours - structure is key. balance is vital.

[PapaDisco]

I find it interesting that aging can improve a merely 'pleasant' cigar as well as an overly harsh cigar.

Let me ask a related question: are there certain cigar flavors that change or disappear more dramatically than others as a stick ages? Does the chocolate go first? Or the sweetness?

Probably a lot depends on if you're a shrink wrapper or not, as that will affect the concentrations, oxidation and general chemistry.

[Bclass1]

More than flavors, it's texture, fat, thickness of the smoke (what's called "la mâche" in the wine world, I don't know how it translates) that tells me if a cigar will evolve in the right way…

Very interesting topic..

Can you explain "fat" in reference to cigars/cigar smoke? In no way is this a sarcastic question, asking to learn..

[Ken Gargett]

I find it interesting that aging can improve a merely 'pleasant' cigar as well as an overly harsh cigar.

Let me ask a related question: are there certain cigar flavors that change or disappear more dramatically than others as a stick ages? Does the chocolate go first? Or the sweetness?

Probably a lot depends on if you're a shrink wrapper or not, as that will affect the concentrations, oxidation and general chemistry.

without specifically trying to answer your question, for me, it equates to wine where you have the primary flavour and the secondary (or developed) flavours. the primary flavours tend to be the fruit characters and their ilk. so in a young cabernet, you might have blackberry, blueberry, black currant, black olive, cherry and so on.then you gradually move to the tertiary flavours such as leather, earthiness, cedar, cigar box etc (and these can also be influenced by oak etc).

i'm sure you can move this across to cigars.

[PapaDisco]

I get what you're saying about certain qualities (smoke texture) indicating a likelihood of aging well. Were there no unique or odd flavors that also seemed to correlate with cigars that aged well? Something that might be subtle but stands out (like the dough flavor in the QDO or Parti E2) in the youthful cigar and would be an indicator for compounds that help rolled tobacco age gracefully.

[Ken Gargett]

i think what you'll find are flavours that indicate a cigar is a relatively youthful one or an aged example but not so much flavours which indicate the potential move. others may see it differently.

[Orion21]

Above all is proper storage. You could have the best cigar ever rolled, but if its not stored properly it won't age. I know it seems elementary, especially to most on here, but there are a lot of boxes out there being stored in sub par conditions. Its kind of like keeping your wine in your coat closet. Sure you can do it, but not for 5, 10 or 20 years.

Also, I have to disagree about if a cigar is good young it most likely will age well. Look to the EL program and how poorly many of those releases have aged. They were great young. I just don't think you can accurately predict aging potential because every box is different. Get 10 years out and then you'll know if it was or not

[Smallclub]

Can you explain "fat" in reference to cigars/cigar smoke? In no way is this a sarcastic question, asking to learn..

Well, I can try but english is not my first language; it's related to the thickness of the smoke; the fatter/oily it is, the more you have the feeling that you can chew it…

Ken should be able to give a more sophisticated explanation…

btw, I encourage people interested in these questions to take a course in oenology/wine tasting, even a basic one. There are many similarities in the two worlds, even at a basic level, IMHO.

[Bclass1]

Well, I can try but english is not my first language; it's related to the thickness of the smoke; the fatter/oily it is, the more you have the feeling that you can chew it…

Ken should be able to give a more sophisticated explanation…

btw, I encourage people interested in these questions to take a course in oenology/wine tasting, even a basic one. There are many similarities in the two worlds, even at a basic level, IMHO.

I think I grasp the concept. I was thinking it had something to do with the thickness/heaviness of the smoke. Much appreciated.

Salute.

[dvickery]

interesting thread ...

observation ... from the answers of people that appear to be serious cigar aging persons ... you almost never hear the word " improve " ... and i agree ... aging "changes" a cigar and some like the changes and some not so much .

for me ... i like those changes .

again ... for me ... it is a quest more for balance than anything else ... that time when strength and flavours seem to be in harmony .

might be only 10 years and it might take a lifetime for a cigar to come into balance/ harmony (for me) .

now to the original question ... if you or anybody else can tell that a young cigar will age well ... please tell me 'cause i have never found a way .

derrek

[dicko]

Great thread. If I had to use one descriptor I would say a "richness", a deepness to the tobacco flavour even if in its youth it is hard to pick apart the exact different flavours. Maybe related to oil content? Maybe just good quality tobacco which will develop.